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Roberto
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Post Number: 1990
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 12:21 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Branched out from inflation in Argentina...
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Robert Gisborn
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Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 25
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2010 - 11:50 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Australia has about half as many people, no where near the access to fresh water as Argentina but has at least twice the GNP/capita as Argentina-and a greater gross GNP.
Argentina had one great President who made his country a first class economic power-and had it well ahead of Australia. He was brought down by a coalition of wealthy Agentinian landowners and foreign capital interests who wanted control of Argentina's industry and resources. His name was Peron (I can't type accents). Shortly after he was brought down. Anglo-American interests helped install a dictatership that got its jollies throwing people into the ocean from helicoptors.
Argentina has a lot of scars to heal.
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Tom
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Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 487
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 12:11 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

what was it that made Peron great. Evita? I really liked the movie.
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Robert Gisborn
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Post Number: 26
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 12:41 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tom, Peron gave the lower classes the gift of humanity. He took Argentina out of cold war entanglements. He launched programs of industrial expansion. He successfully opposed The wealthy elite who controlled vast areas the country and treated their workers like surfs. He was determined to take Argentina from just an agricultural economy into a major 1st world nation that could stand equally among the great nations of the world.
Argentina is not a gaucho theme park. Peron had to play devils against devils to survive and work to fulfill his dream of a great Argentine nation. If Peron were running things today the oil reserves of the Patagonian continental shelf would be making the country wealthy, There would be great universities throughout the country. The wind potential of Patagonia would be producing power. Operation Condor and the horrors produced from the "School of the Americas" temporarily slowed his dream but I hope it will be revived.
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AMARAGGI
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Username: Amar

Post Number: 39
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, October 15, 2010 - 6:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Robert,

I dont see Peron's role as the one you describe. He developed the same economic politics that Mussolini and Hitler had enforced by spoliating some groups and printing money. He was himself a great admirer of Nazi Germany where he had been representing Argentina. For Mussolini and Hitler the end of the war was the end of their politics. Argentina could only cope by facing devaluations and turnmoil. Today the high level of prices for food an meat allows to spend and slow down inflation rate. I don't know if this helps creating new entrepreneurs and middle class. But the cult for Peron and Peronism of the political class is insane. It is a real pity. Andres Oppenheimer has written a very interesting book about all that. With a better governance (Like in Chile) Argentina would be a lot better.
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Robert Gisborn
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Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 27
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 12:13 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

This association of Hitler with Peron was made by his enemies and is patently nonsense. Let's take the charge that he allowed Nazis to immigrate: The US searched for and specifically hired Germans who were knowingly guilty of horrible war crimes, Werner Von Braun being one. Ever hear of Operation Paperclip? Google it. Peron could not control who entered the country. Chicago School representatives made up these fantasies about Peron while their enforcers were torturing and executing tens of thousands.
During his administrations Argentina moved ahead of every South America country in basic human rights, education and infrastructure. He enjoyed the popularity that NO other head of State ever received since his time. If the people of Argentina could bring the body mutilated by his critics-the ones who compared him to Hitler- back to life they would- and reelect him.
Look at Argentina's neighbor-the Chicago Boy show piece Chili-Santiago is a polluted mess. Work place safety is not enforced-if an American crew had not been available to haul those miners up they still would be down there.
Do you think most Argentinians would want their country to be like Chile?
Argentina was not a plum to be cut up by native inherited wealth and foreign capital interests when Peron held Argentina's helm.
As for debt, the US ran up many times the (adjusted) deficit we did last year ($1,000,000,000,000.0) during WWII and we came out of it stronger than ever. That's more debt than the whole of South America has accumulated since Simon Bolivar. The Chicago Boys monetary theories are garbage.
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Tom
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Post Number: 488
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Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Robert, first of all, the Nazi connection is only nonsense for those who want to deny history. Nazis flooded into Argentina after world war II where Peron welcomed them and their stolen loot.
To attack the US for what they did after world war II is disingenious. The Soviet Union, Britian, the US and anyone else who could took in German Scientist and intelligence agents who could help with them with the cold war.

But so what, too say others did the same thing as Peron does not mean he didn't do it. Just because a thief robs a bank in the US doesn't mean it's ok to do it in another country.

Peron could control who entered the country. He was in Charge from 1946 to 1951 when the Nazi's were sneaking out of Europe. He welcomed them. He may be your hero but facts are facts. I don't have to google it. It is what it is.

And to argue the US ran up its debt after WWII really irritates me. The US rebuilt Europe and Japan and spent a fortune in men and money fighting the Communists in Korea and elsewhere.

The Marshal Plan, be sure and google that, spent a fortune in France, Germany, Italy, Britian, other parts of Europe, in Japan and other parts of the world hoping that the problems that started WWII would not be repeated. What countries did Peron help rebuild?
Now the infrastructure of the US is old and crumbling while countries that compete against us have post war industries and infrastructure. But we will rebuild and invent ways to get off the oil based economy and while doing it create thousands of jobs and make this country even better.

Not only was the US the arsenal of democracy during the war but it was the banker to the world afterward giving out loans with no interest and outright grants which were never repaid.

Peron does not compare to Kennedy, Reagan, Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhour, Wilson etc etc.

Everyone in the world claims successes are home made but anything that is bad the mean Old Americans are to blame. Not only is that horse crap it is bull crap. By any other name it smells the same.

I think Argentina doesn't like Chile is because of the disputes over the border with Argentina. Chili is now a well governed country that doesn't default on its world bank loans like Argentina. Argentina borrowed the money and their leaders then stole it and sent it to Swiss bank accounts. So what. They still owed the money and to say our leaders are corrupt and stole the money doesn't forgive the loans. The thieves were Argentines.

Don't dump on Chili. It has been relatively free of the coups and arbitrary governments of South America but, like Argentina, had a military junta in the 70s and 80s left thousands dead or missing.
Today, Chile is one of South America's most stable and prosperous nations. It is said it leads Latin American nations in human development, competitiveness, quality of life, political stability, income per capita, globalization and economic freedom. It has a low perception of corruption and comparatively low poverty rates and ranks high in freedom of the press and democratic development.

Peron like most other leaders of Argentina and South America wanted to be President/dictator for life. Too think otherwise is niave.

Isn't the current administration of Argentina Peronists?

Where down under is there a George Washington who was offered the leadership of his country for life but turned it down.

And what is wrong with Gauchos. They work their butts off for low wages and homes that you and I would call livestock sheds. Most don't have electricity or running water. I greatly admire gauchos. They are the American cowboy of Argentina and feed millions of people world wide.

I haven't seen where Peron called himslef a hero of the middle class. The poor were as poor under Peron as they are now under a leader whose party uses his name?

You make my point on one topic. When the US spends billions we come out stronger with the exception of the billions Bush wasted in Iraq. When the countries of South America spends billions it usually winds up in Swiss banks. The Chicago Boys whoever they are I am thinking are in the worlds only super Power. China is a wanna be but they aren't there yet.

We beat the Nazis, we beat the Soviets, we beat everyone we ever faught including Vietnam on the field of battle.

And for those who cry the US is on its way down deny the obvious. Those who study history have heard these gloom and doom prophacies for over 230+ years and were wrong then and are wrong now.

People keep walking across deserts and sailing oceans on leaky overcrowded boats to get here.

I love Argentina and the US. Both are great countries right now and will be in the future. And Juan Peron did not make either one of them.

Who are the Chicago Boys by the way?
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Robert Gisborn
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Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 28
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 1:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tom, here is a link to what is commonly called the Chicago school of economics or more commonly "The Chicago Boys"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_school_of_economicsProvable Fact. The US searched for and brought to the US Germans who were known to have experimented on and killed Jews in Germany to work for this country. Werner Von Broun experimented on and killed Jews in chambers in which the air was slowly extracted. There were many others, such as Rudolf, who gladly helped the CIA.
Peron did nothing like this and could no more control who crossed Argentina's borders than we can control ours.
The students from the US Army's "School of The Americas" instructed South American dictators in the art of organizing riots,torture and killing. The CIA was one of the planners of "Operation Condor"
Did you see the way these miners in Northern Chile live? Did you see their homes? Did you see the safety conditions of their mines? Wow! Who wouldn't want to live in this desert paradise? But it is a paradise compared to the way Chile's indigenous peoples have to live. Those miners are, by the way some of the highest paid of Chile's work force. Chile exploits its environment, its indigenous peoples and its copper at the wishes of foreign banks. Americans are going to Argentina for elective surgery. If you suggested they go to Chile for this surgery they think you were nuts. Medical science(science in general) is far more advanced in Argentina. And that is greatly attributed to Peron.
One could be a Peronista and a crook. A Peronista is not Peron. The great reputation of Peron is being used.
The Reagan I remember ran up enormous deficits, opposed unionization for California farm workers and started tax deduction from California payrolls. Which one do you remember? By the way, his son is a Democrat-as he once was.

(Message edited by admin on October 16, 2010)
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Robert Gisborn
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Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 29
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 2:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

http://www.elpais.com/articulo/internacional/Amnistia/Internacional/critica/Chile/ratificar/convenio/seguridad/minas/OIT/elpepuint/20101015elpepuint_13/Tes

(Message edited by admin on October 16, 2010)
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AMARAGGI
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Username: Amar

Post Number: 40
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Robert,

I think you are mixing a lot of things in a curious minestrone. We were speaking of Peron's politics and yes he was inspoired by what Hitler did in Germany that was partially financed by spoliating German and Austrian Jews and later by looting occupied countries. He was largely inspired by Kraft durch Freude that provided holidays, sport, theater etc to the mass gaining their fanatic support. This was financed by printing money and fueling inflation. The idea of the inspired guide is insane (at least to me). Argentina Politics is a mystery for me. At least in Buenos Aires I have the feeling to be in an European country but I have the impression that the rules of politics are completely different that what is known in a democracy.
The idea of alternance of parties and doctrines seems to be absent. Everybody has to proclaim his peronist obediance. I recommend the book of Oppenheimer "los estados desunidos de America del Sur. It is quite interesting.
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Tom
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Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 489
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 3:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I never said the US didn't use Nazis after the war. I actually said we did.
Show me the credible evidence that VonBraun did medical expiraments.
Document that Peron was the reason Argentina has such a great medical reputation. Argentina had Medical schools long before Peron.
I have seen homes of Gauchos on the inside. I have seen the slums of Buenos Aires. Don't tell me all those poor people are foreigners.
The CIA is loaded with true patriots who risk their lives every day to protect this country. I have met and talked at length with a member of the Argentine secret service which was very complimentary about the CIA and the intelligence assistance given to them by the Company.
The CIA has a bad name due to the Hollywood mystique that always paints them as bad guys. One of the most glaring successes of the CIA is the victroy in Afganistan over the Soviet occupation army.
Every country in the world has slums and people living in horrible conditions.
You do know the drugs sold in Argentina were mostly discovered and produced in the US and cost a fraction of what they sell for here.

You are arguing that Peron is the reason Argentina is great.
I do not agree. Argentina is great because of the people. Over 97% of them are from or have European ancestry.

Peron has never walked on water and many people in Argentina don't agree with you that he was as great as you portray him.

I know that the Chicago School of Law is one of the finest in the world. But the politics of the school don't run this country no more than the Politics of any other group other than Democrats and Republicans.
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James Guglielmino
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Username: Jgug1

Post Number: 26
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 3:51 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I've been watching this thread with some interest. My own sense was that Peron was more bad than good. However, I did a short Goggle search. He WAS a dictator who changed the country's constitution so he could succeed himself. Apparently he was strongly influenced by Mussolini (not Hitler), as he spent a year in Italy while Mussolini was in power. A lot of his power came from Eva, who passionately supported him....He didn't seem to employ the horrible methods of many dictators and it seems that he did a lot of good for the nation.
Tom, your assertions regarding the CIA seem flawed to me. It is likely that the "affair in Afghanistan" will go down as one of the most disastrous escapades of the CIA EVER....Think about it. The CIA was also the outfit that did the coup in Iran in 1953. We are still feeling the fallout over that disastrous and quite illegal event. Sure, the members of the CIA love America and are essential. Consider Valerie Plame, the doomed CIA agent outed by Rove and Cheney using others, of course. She was a specialist in weapons of mass destruction.
And I too, question Von Braun being involved in "medical experiments." There certainly WERE Germans who were and WE did those ghastly experiments in South America as well, a horrible stain on our own nation. I've read that the CIA experimented with hallucinogenic drugs but don't know that to be true. It seems to me that there are excesses on both sides of this argument.
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Tom
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Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 490
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 4:34 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The CIA success I talked about was the war against the Soviets.
The after affects of the war in Afghanistan were truly not in anyones best interest unless you are a Taliban or Alquida supporter.
The Irag war is the real culprit for the Iran problem. We overthrew the biggest enemy of the Iranians. Think about that. Saddam was a Sunni who hated Iran and had fought them for ten years. While he was in power you didn't hear a lot from the Iranians. Reminds me of the saying the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

As for Peron, after World War II, Argentina became a leading haven for Nazi war criminals, with explicit protection from Perón. Uki Goñi showed in his 1998 book that Nazis and French and Belgian collaborationists, including Pierre Daye, met Perón in the President's official residence, the Casa Rosada (Pink House). In this meeting, a network was created with support by the Argentine Immigration Service and the Foreign Office. The Swiss Chief of Police Heinrich Rothmund and the Croatian Roman Catholic priest Krunoslav Draganović also helped organize the the so called ratline. According to Goñi, 1948 was the most active year, during which Carlos Fuldner was in Switzerland with a special passport describing him as "special envoy of the President of Argentina." In 1946, Cardinal Antonio Caggiano went to the Vatican in the name of the Argentine government, and offered refuge for French collaborationists who had fled to Rome.

An investigation of 22,000 documents by the DAIA in 1997 discovered that the network was managed by Rodolfo Freude who had an office in the Casa Rosada and was close to Eva Perón's brother, Juan Duarte. According to Ronald Newton, Ludwig Freude, Rodolfo's father, was probably the local representative of the Office Three secret service headed by Joachim von Ribbentrop, with probably more influence than the German ambassador Edmund von Thermann. He had met Perón in the 1930s. Ludwig Freude's house became the meetingplace for Nazis and Argentine military officers supporting the Axis. In 1943, he traveled with Perón to Europe to attempt an arms deal with Germany. Peron was a Coronel in the Argentine Army.

Examples of Nazis who relocated to Argentina with Perons consent include Emile Dewoitine, who arrived in May 1946 and worked on the Pulqui jet, Erich Priebke, who arrived in 1947, Josef Mengele in 1949, Adolf Eichmann in 1950, his adjutant Franz Stangl, SS functionary Ludwig Lienhardt, Nazi industrialist Ludwig Freude and SS-Hauptsturmführer Klaus Barbie.

These people all were directly involved with the Nazi's efforts to enslave the world and the extermination of Jews, Gypsies, pow's and anyone else not thought to be a memeber of the Arian race.

I do not think my assertion of the CIA is flawed.

Don't hang the medical experiments on the CIA. The US recently apologized for the work done by Doctor John Cutler of the US health service, not the CIA, for the medical experiments in Guatemala. He did the same thing on prisoners in Alabama.

Joseph Mengali whom Peron welcome to Argentina did arguably much worse in Nazi Germany. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Rove, Cheney and Rumsfeld, none with any real CIA ties, orchestrated the biggest fiasco that will haunt this nation and the world for years to come. Iraq was the wrong war at the wrong time in the wrong place. Had we concentrated our national treasury in Afghanistan I truly believe Benladen would be a history lesson, Alquada would be much weaker and the Taliban would be non existant as any type of viable threat to anyone, Iraq would still be a nation with running water and electricity, over 5000 US service men and women would still be alive along with many more thousands of Iraqis. And we would not have the problems we are having now with Pakistan and of course the Iranians.

Don't get me wrong. I am not a fan of Saddam Hussein. He was an evil dictator but he was not our problem. We controlled 2/3s of his air space while keeping our fighter pilots well trained. He was the best buffer against Iran that we could ask for. And we had no right under any law to invade that country. The CIA provided ample evidence there were no weapons of mass destruction in Irag and knew the real war was in Afghanistan where it was common knowledge to everyone that Alquida had training bases. Saddem was an enemy of those guys also.

The bottom line, Peron openly welcomed Nazi criminals to Argentina.
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Robert Gisborn
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Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 32
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 4:41 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I deal in facts. Von Braun's "scientific work" on humans was documented on film by the Germans themselves. The film still exists. I saw it. I lived in Germany and I speak German. Today the US does not deny that he did that research in which people-mostly Jews-were slowly killed. Rudolf was later admitted to also have committed grievous war crimes by the very country that gave him cover -the US.
The only connection one can make about Peron and Italian Fascism is that the Italians claimed to be followers of Alfredo Pareto-who was a great economist. They weren't really but Peron-to his credit- was. I didn't say Peron made Argentina great or that he was loved by every body in Argentina. He certainly wasn't loved by the exploiters of Argentine labor or by the ghouls who cut the hands off his dead body. He made significant changes in the betterment of the society and he was and is loved and respected by most of the people in Argentina.
The CIA armed Osamna Bin Laden so he could throw those Ruskies out. Is that their shining achievement? OK, will just overlook the overthrow of a democratic government in Iran, Operation Condor, Pinochet, Rudolf, etc., etc.
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Tom
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Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 491
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 6:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Robert, you insinuate you are the only one to deal in facts.

Ignore the facts that Peron allowed Nazi's to enter Argentina with his blessings. I have studied WWII and have never seen a connection by Von Braun to medical experiments. Why would he in reality. Any movie or press release by the Nazi's has to be looked at with a very critical eye.

Nazi Germany was notorios for its propaganda. They claimed that Rommel died from war wounds when in fact he was forced to take poision at the hands of the Gestopo for his involvement in one of the plots to kill Hitler. These are well documented facts that are backed up by Rommels son who was there when his father was taken away.

Saying the Germans made the film gives it way to much credibility. A play on words if you will. We are talking about Nazi Germans. Yes, many Nazi's were Germans. But there were Nazi's in the US as well as Argentina.

Rudolf who? What Rudolf are you talking about that the US gave shelter to? And like I have said several times. Yes, the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA took in Nazi's after the war. I do not deny that. You deny that Peron had anything to do with Nazi war criminals entering Argentina. The facts say otherwise.

My wife, the daughter of an Argentina doctor, wasn't an exploiter of Argentina labor or anyone else and she hates Peron almost as much as you love him. You have no statistics to back up your assertion that Peron was loved and well respected by most of the people of Argentina. That is suppositon.

The CIA's shinning achievement? E pluribus unum . The fact we armed BenLaden to beat our enemy was the right thing to do. The Soviets were killing Afghans by the thousands, no mercy for the innocent women and children either. YES, it was a shinning moment for the CIA. We also armed Saddem Hussien to fight the Iranians for ten years. At one time in our history the French armed us when we fought the British who called us terrorists also.
We did not arm just benLaden, we armed a whole bunch of Afghans to to run the Soviets out. They were Soviets, not Ruskies. The Soviet Army had a lot of people in it that were born outside the country that is now know as Russia.

Are you suggesting the overthow of Pinochet was not a good thing?

Is the Rudolf you speak of the leader of Santa's reindeer. The last I heard the CIA had nothing to do with his downfall. Given the life span of reindeer I'm thinking he has gone to greener pastures in the sky. Or maybe his red nose losts its glow.

Argentina was one of the main players in Operation Condor with several other South American governments. Their goal was to suppress socialism in South America. Two members of the group of nations involved, Ecuador and Peru did recieve advisory assistance from the US.
Henry Kissenger is reported to have told the Argentines that the US congress was getting ready to investigate any involvement by the US with Operation Condor. Kissenger was not a CIA agent. The CIA shares intelligence with countries everywhere that are considered friends of the US. It is part of their job. They help expose terrorist threats to the US and other countries every day. The true history of CIA successess and failures will never be know. They are after all a secret service.

Attacking the US, Chili and the CIA with their blunders does not make Peron innocent.

You forgot to mention the CIA was supporting Castro when he overthew Batista. They were sorry for that when he became a Communist Dictator.
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Robert Gisborn
Junior Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 33
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 7:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tom, I agree with you on some points but I can prove every point where I think you wrong. First, let me give you an example of popular American history. Of the scores of American westerns I saw there was no horse droppings in the streets of the make believe western towns. Yet, horses everywhere. Were they constipated or did the thought of horse droppings in American popular history disturb the American view of itself.
Eichmann and the other Nazi scoundrels entered Argentina with falsified papers and worked under falsified names. They did no work for the government. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid did the same but not because Argentina supported the business activities of the hole in the wall gang. Freude was a scoundrel who worked inside the government but what he was doing was not under control of Peron. Peron had a lot on his plate and he played devil against devil just to survive but he made no use of former war criminals. Argentina and Chile had many settlers from Germany and many of these were sympathetic to the Nazis-and vital to Peron's programs. This can't compare to Operation Paper Clip where the government "cleansed" the records of war criminals. The fact that you do not know who Rudolf was or that Von Braun was a member of the SS leaves me to believe you never attempted any research and that you refuse to see the horse droppings.
As for the doctors and educated professionals of today who deplore Peron. Where did their families get the money for their education? Were they any of the "shirtless ones"? Does that term mean anything to you? Chances not. Even Ernesto Guevara got his medical education because his family was moderately wealthy. (I believe Guevara's family were NOT Peron supporters, but I'm not sure).
Yes, Tom, those old western streets were really piled with horse ....
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Robert Gisborn
Junior Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 34
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 7:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I'm straining this thread and I really don't want to distract from the purpose of this forum which is Argentina. But because Peron is so central to what Argentina is today may I just add this requested link. This one is in German because Spanish and English links are not current. Good grief, I hope we never get into a conversation about Ernesto Guevara. I guess I should not have mentioned him.

http://www.rolf-froehling.de/alle_reportagen/usedom_14/usedom_3.html

(Message edited by admin on October 17, 2010)
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Ricardo
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Username: Gromit

Post Number: 22
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 8:48 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tom,
Vietnam defeated the mighty military machine of the USA...at a huge price to their people. Tweaking historical facts diminishes your credibility.
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Rob Roy
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Username: Panamahat

Post Number: 13
Registered: 6-2010
Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 9:47 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

After a lifetime of observing world politics, I have come to one conclusion. I believe the fundamental political dialectic that defined the Twentieth century, and indeed the 21 century, is the struggle between Socialism and Fascism.

This may sound surprising. Most people would say Capitalism and Communism, but if you strip away the political labels which are meaningless, you can see these are the forces at play.

In Argentina Peron would be socialist and the military junta that succeeded him Fascist.

In America Obama is socialist, as the right accuses him of being. The far right Neocon movement under Bush would be Fascist. For example Bush invading Iraq to "liberate the people" as Hitler invaded Poland to "liberate the people" and many other examples I won't mention.

Most people think Fascism is long dead. I disagree, it merely waits in the wings. Even in the post World War Two period, Franco continued to rule Spain as a Fascist. Many Central and South American countries were until recently Fascist.

A recent example is France expelling it's entire Gypsy population. Even Germany was up in arms, said WHoo this sounds familiar. Newsweek magazine recently had the french President on the cover, with the headline France moves hard to the right.

Hard to the right indeed, there lies Fascism. History has shown us Fascism can take hold very quickly, particularly in times of economic crisis.
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Robert Gisborn
Junior Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 36
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 11:13 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

To Rob Roy. Yup
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 493
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 12:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Robert, to compare censorship of movies and a Hollywood depiction of horse manure is pretty much what it implies. Horse manure.
Actors didn't want to dodge piles so a studio lacky ran around with a shovel. Come to think of it, I don't remember westerns even today with piles in the streets.

You are just plain wrong about your hero Peron. Pull your head out of the sand and do some objective study about the man. He was an admirer of the Nazis and the Facisits. He like them so much he even equipped his army with German style helmets.

Your view of Peron is clouded and you refuse to accept facts. True facts. I have seen photos of Peron taken with Nazis. He was not duped by anyone. He was a Nazi sympathiser, plain and simple. Your denials do not change the facts.
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AMARAGGI
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Username: Amar

Post Number: 41
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 1:03 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

More that his admiration for the fascists and the nazis what is at stake here is his economic politics that still are supposed to base the actual Argentinans politicians. They were directly inspired by the nazi "miracle". And we know how this last one was financed and the populism that was its mere roots. Unfortunately, it seems that the same populism is plaguing Argentina. Obviously this country with its agricultural wealth, its level of education, has a huge potential and could insure a more than decent level of prosperity for all its citizens.
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Robert Gisborn
Junior Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 39
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 2:30 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tom, Truman had his picture taken with Franco and Stalin. What does that prove.
Peron was the first Latin American leader to recognize the State of Israel. He was the first to establish commercial ties with it. He appointed many Jewish advisors (Argentina had and does have the largest Jewish population in Latin America). How could a Nazi sympathizer do that? The Jews of Argentina flourished under Peron. This Nazi BS came from his enemies who didn't like the way he was curing the Latin American disease: Massive wealth held by a few and the expense of the greater population. These wealthy people did-do- not want to invest their tax money in Universities, Dams and public works. They need that money for polo ponies.
Peron made massive investments in public works. He had to fight for money Britain owed Argentina and later a US embargo. He was elected by the people of Argentina and the accusation he was a dictator is a lie. He did originally take power by force but was immensely popular then for his work in raising money for earth quake victims. He was always popular and popular support was never a question for Peron. As an aside, Mendoza and other cities trying to stop the Andes from growing will be leveled-not if, just when. Let's hope there is another Peron to help them.
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Roberto
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Username: Admin

Post Number: 1992
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 2:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Two bits, if I may...

Traditionally, a small segment of the Military in Argentina have always been biased against Jews. This, in spite of their alledged admiration of Israel war prowess, their mighty air power and sophisticated secret service. I say this with first-hand knowledge after my 16 months of service and numerous punishments received because of my quasi-jewish condition. Which all ended up in a military court trial. But this is not to say they -and Peron- were or have been nazis at heart.

As for Peron, I would say he was too astute a politician to just keep close ties to one group. On the surface, it may have looked like he was a nazi supporter -perhaps in exchange of diamonds/gold- and even more a Mussolini follower but deeper inside he was the kind of man to cut deals with many and never, ever have one door closed. Except for that one to the montoneros on May 1974 Peron and the montoneros. One thing the man wasn't, was your run-of-the-mill dictator.

As for the present peronism running this administration, nothing further from the true doctrines of the old days. Today, what you have is a mere unconditional quest for power hidden under the veil of populism and a relentless attack to institutions that may get on the way of them achieving these goals. Peron is a picture in the background, talked down behind doors. Those now in power are the same he insulted that ignominious day at Plaza de Mayo. Watch the video.
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Gloria Dapolito
New member
Username: Gloriajd

Post Number: 3
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 3:51 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I am a Peronist; Although born in America, by choice, I am a Peronist; I have read everything ever written about Juan Peron and much of what he himself has written. To know Juan Peron is to know what it means to care for others, especially those less fortunate then yourself. The best thing for a Peronist is another Peronist.

In Juan Peron’s own words:

“We struggle so that labor may be considered with the dignity that it deserves, so that we all may feel the desire and the impulse to honor ourselves by working, and so that no one who is able to work may live only to consume.” Juan Peron, 1 May 1944

17 October 1945 Juan Peron made this vision explicit: “I leave, then, the honorable and sacred uniform given to me by the fatherland in order to he coat of a civilian and join with that suffering and sweaty mass that produces with its labor the greatness of the country… This is the people; this is the suffering people that represents the pain of the mother earth, which we must vindicate. It is the people of the fatherland

“The union of all Argentines so that that struggle is transformed into collaboration and cooperation, so that we can create new values and not destroy uselessly, in a sterile struggle, values and energies that are the only forces capable of making men happy and nations great.”
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Robert Gisborn
Junior Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 40
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 4:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Roberto, well said. But please, by 1974 Peron had been through, physical,personal and professional hell. Also a dictator rules against the will of the majority of the people. When did Peron not have the majority behind him? He was a man of his people. Those politicians trying to capitalize on his reputation today like the Kirchners (Kirchner :cherry picker in German-well suited) are...Well you no what they are. Cherry pickers
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Kirk Afshar
New member
Username: Love_argentina

Post Number: 10
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 5:00 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

what Peron did for Argentina no one ever did in 20 century after second world war Argentina became most educated nation and economy was booming now those people who do not remember or not familiar with Argentina and Latin America with US and British and Spanish colonialism just shoot their mouth attacking such Great man Viva Peron Viva Argentina and people of argentine
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 495
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 7:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oh come on Robert, Reagan had his picture taken with Gorbachav, does that mean he loved Communism.
Truman and his predecessor Roosevelt had his picture taken with Stalin also. They were allies in a war against the Nazi's.
Peron was never at war with the Nazi's or anyone else outside Argentina. That first statemen makes me want to throw up.
Pero was not the second coming.
He did some good and he was a friend of the Nazi's. No one is perfect. Deal with it.
The US was the very first nation of all nations to recognize Israel.
You are probably correct Roberto. Peron was after the gold, diamonds and other wealth the Nazi's brought to Argentina.
I never said I did not like him. I have argued all along he let Nazi's into the country. His motives, you, I and no one else in this forum can honestly say.
Evita knew and knowing her poor background somewhat leads me to believe she was a driving force behind the man. She knew there were more poor in Argentina than rich and to help them was to gain votes. In Argentina at that time labor was pretty much the poor with the low wages and such.
Peron was a military officer with the same privilages as any other officer in the Argentine army. The hell he went through cannot be compared to the poor of that country. Remember this, when he went to jail he got out. Thousands of others weren't so lucky.
Juan Peron was not a God. He was a man. He may very well have been the best leader of Argentina. I hope for Argentina's sake they start having a lot of great leaders. From what I have read most of the leaders of the country if not all were after power and riches. From what I understand one reason for Argentina's problems today is that a lot of politicians stole billions from the country and now it is having to be paid back.
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Gloria Dapolito
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Username: Gloriajd

Post Number: 4
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 7:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Viva Peron
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1994
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 4:39 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

members, I will make yet another split and create a thread gauchos/cowboys and be moving a bunch of postings from here to there. In the future, it will be good to stay on topic. This thread is related to Peron. For a different topic that is worth its own thread for a vivid discussion (che guevara was mentioned, gauchos, immigration patterns, etc.) it is easy to start a new thread using a 2 step process:

a) choose the most appropriate topic at
http://www.travelsur.net/forum/messages/board-topi cs.html

b) after clicking on the topic scroll down to the bottom and click "start new thread". Give it a descriptive Title (Subject), post your message and submit. I just checked. There are about 2000 registered members and almost all have subscribed to all topics so it will be read.

Most of the things discussed recently would be appropriate to "culture" and the "start new thread" page for that is this one

http://www.travelsur.net/cgi-bin/discus/board-post .cgi?HTTP_REFERER=/3/3.html&action=form

Thank you for cooperating... and besides difference in opinions I thank you for keeping it mostly civilized.
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1996
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 5:06 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Done. So we have 3 news threads for:

Gauchos and American Cowboys for gauchos/cowboys and ethnicity related issues.

Peron Juan Peron, present and past, consequences of his administration, etc.

High inflation: is there a come back? hyperinflation? new crisis?

Please try to stay on topic for each thread or eventually create a new one. If you are coming from an email alert make sure to navigate to the correct thread to post an answer as I have moved messages around.
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Rob Roy
New member
Username: Panamahat

Post Number: 16
Registered: 6-2010
Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 10:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Roberto
Respectfully I would like to propose a new thread.
Nazi, Peron, super race, CIA, Chicago boys,Gaucho skin color, American cowboy,Jeans.
People please stay on this topic only.
Just kidding....
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Robert Gisborn
Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 52
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 11:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Rob Roy, the name of this thread is Peron and Argentina's evolution so why start a new thread on Peron? The very name of this thread indicates it has to do with a highly controversial political figure and the evolution part has to do with the bloody dictatorship that followed his last administration. Underclass, mass assassination,and economic collapse are not light subjects and anyone who wishes to avoid such subjects should avoid such a thread. If you know anything about Argentina you should know that the most recognizable past Argentinians in this world are Evita, Che and Juan. Why? The answer is in the turbulent history of a fascinating nation. If you wish to not allow such threads well that's OK but once the Pandora's box is opened be prepared to read things that may make you feel uncomfortable.
One more thing, Argentina is one of the world leaders in Forensic archeology-if not the world leader. Do you know why?
The answer is not nice.
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Frances Eddy
New member
Username: Loquat34

Post Number: 1
Registered: 5-2008
Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 7:57 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I find this to one of the more interesting topics that I have encountered in the Argentina Forum. I for one would like to stay with it. I spent three months in Argentina and found it virtually impossible to find any books in English that spoke to the history of Argentina. I managed in the end to find two out of many bookstores I visited. One is called The Myths of Argentine History by Felipe Pigna. It is an eye opening beginning. The truth about this country is not just important for Argentinians but also for the rest of humanity. The more it is recognized that today is built upon the hierarchical systems of the past that served to separate people locally and globally the closer we will come to recognizing that these systems serve no one in the end.
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Robert Gisborn
Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 53
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 11:10 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Frances, please let me tell you how this thread was born. It started with one on the economy of Argentina.
Now I think we can agree on those factors that affect the economy of a nation.
Natural resources. That can't be the decisive factor or the economy of Mexico would be far stronger than Japan's.
Would we argue that the culture of its people may be important? If so, how did they come to have their culture?
Did it not grow from their history?
Are we to deny that the history of any country is a powerful formation factor in it's economy?
If anyone maintained that Peron was not an important historical figure of Argentina than I would disagree energetically.
Yet, many felt speaking of the history of Argentina was leaving the thread on the economy.
However, I understand why many want to be silent on Argentina's history. They feel it is a bloody wound that needs time to heal. But what they don't realize is that the history of other countries is no less pretty and, in more cases than not, far more painful. Still, they write of it and come to terms with it.
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Frances Eddy
New member
Username: Loquat34

Post Number: 2
Registered: 5-2008
Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 11:37 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thank you Robert for providing the background to this discussion. I don't think the present state of any country can be discussed fully without a discussion on the economies of the past. If the truth is not embraced you can expect a repetition over and over again of the same or similar results. In other words it is not really possible to move forward, that is, into a better paradigm without going through the discomfort of facing the truth.
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Rob Roy
New member
Username: Panamahat

Post Number: 17
Registered: 6-2010
Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 11:39 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Frances
I have a pdf copy of a interesting book in English "A brief history of Argentina"

It covers all the country's history from early colonial times, through the liberal era, Peron, post Peron etc. I would be happy to email it to you, or anyone else on the list that has a interest.

Just private message me by clicking my name, and send me your email address.
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Gloria Dapolito
New member
Username: Gloriajd

Post Number: 5
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

There are so many GOOD books about Argentina; I have fallen in love with Argentina through the many books I have read on the subject. I have fallen in love with Argentina and her people from the pampas to the Casa Rosada and everything in between. I should be in Argentina right now, I had 8 days booked, staying at the Alvear Palace Hotel and had to cancel because of illness, and that broke my heart, but that trip is only postponed.

The 4 books I have listed below are books about Argentina and Juan Peron; each one excellent. I have read many, but these top my list.

Peron and the Enigmas of Argentina by Robert D. Crassweller is my favorite, it is a great read.
http://www.amazon.com/Peron-Enigmas-Argentina-Robert-Crassweller/dp/0393305430

Peron by Joseph Page, another excellent read
http://www.amazon.com/Peron-Biografia-Biography-Ensayo-Biografia-Essays-Biography/dp/9875660779/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1287689574&sr=1-3

The New Cultural History of Peronism by Matthew B Karush and Oscar Chamosa
http://www.amazon.com/New-Cultural-History-Peronism-Mid-Twentieth-Century/dp/0822347385/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1287689658&sr=1-1

The Argentina Reader: History, Culture, Politics (Latin America in Translation) by Gabriela Nouzeilles, Graciela Montaldo, Robin Kirk, Orin Starn
http://www.amazon.com/Argentina-Reader-History-Politics-Translation/dp/082232914X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1287689692&sr=1-1

There are many others, but these are my favorite and excellent book on the subject. All are in English.

(Message edited by admin on October 21, 2010)
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Kirk Afshar
New member
Username: Love_argentina

Post Number: 11
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 11:55 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I spend two years in Argentina and my experience has been the best country in the earth people nature culture and most educated well informed and open minded people they speak their mind without fear. despite a military rolls and kidnapping of children Argentinean remind wonderfully patience and determine to continue to have a best culture and economy I can spend $100 a month to eat and their mess transit (from colectivo to underground or subway system and trains is wonderful as well as their long distance Busses) I command Argentine and Argentineans and I say keep it up you are the best
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Frances Eddy
New member
Username: Loquat34

Post Number: 3
Registered: 5-2008
Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 12:03 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Robert, That is the second book of the two I found in English in Argentina. Thanks for your generosity though. I'd be interested to know out of curiosity if the people on this thread are living in Argentina or elsewhere. I am in Bermuda which is my island of birth.
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Rob Roy
New member
Username: Panamahat

Post Number: 18
Registered: 6-2010
Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 12:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi
Just a followup regarding the pdf A brief history of Argentina the pdf file is 7 mg it may take a few minutes to download to your email.
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Robert Gisborn
Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 54
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 12:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Here is what I consider the type of news I like to read from Argentina and the type of news most promising for Argentina's future. Also-in my opinion-a legacy of Peron.

http://www.clarin.com/sociedad/Argentinos-identifican-biologico-insectos-plantas_0_357564317.html
I might add Clarin.com is a source of more information than you can use about Argentina. Their pdf version even shows the current prices of everything from milk to autos.(fee) It is the same daily newspaper you can buy on the street in BA. The advantage of the HTML version over the pdf is that is the easier use of a translation app if you don't read Spanish. For apartment seekers there are highly detailed-including pictures-of hundreds of rentals and sales.

(Message edited by admin on October 21, 2010)
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Robert Gisborn
Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 55
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 2:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

If I may append my last post. Unfortunately, the press of Argentina has been put under considerable political pressure. Let's hope this will be temporary.

http://en.rsf.org/press-freedom-index-2010,1034.html (copy and paste in your browser)

I've got to hold judgement on the charges the President threw at the family that owns Clarin as I have no way to check their accuracy, but regardless, is that a defense against of what Clarin has accurately reported?

(Message edited by admin on October 21, 2010)

(Message edited by admin on October 21, 2010)
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2005
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 8:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Rob was generous enough to let us have the pdf file on our server. So if anyone wants to download it, print it or whatever we have the copy here. Clicking the link will open it. Then, you can save it to your computer.

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