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Roberto
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Post Number: 1995
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Differences, styles, origins, etc.
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Robert Gisborn
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Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 42
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, October 18, 2010 - 9:59 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I noticed that someone recommended a book written by Andres Oppenheimer of the Miami Herald as an objective study of Peron and his administrations. Well, except for the brief period the mortally ill Peron served in the seventies Oppenheimer does not talk from direct experience. His family belongs to the elite that opposed Peron's fight for the rights of workers. They were hardly the Evita's "shirtless ones" (By the way I've noticed harsh critics of Maria Eva Duarte de Peron using the diminutive form of her name- which I find amusing-a twisted contradiction).
Oppenheimer sees grave danger for South America from creeping socialism but speaks very briefly about this supposed golden era before the workers of South America were unionized and the wealthy families ran the countries as their private estates.
The popularity of Peron is in Oppenheimer's view "populism". However, I'd call it Democracy.
Argentinians like Americans love to believe their myths. They were influenced by movies that fed their need to believe in the make believe. I mentioned the lack of horse plop in all American westerns as a metaphor for this silliness. In one movie "Paint Your Wagon" gold dust was used to buy whiskey in a saloon. Since then many Americans believe gold dust was an exchange medium. Suuure the bar tender had a means of determining its purity and specific gravity. The Argentine myth of the free living happy gaucho who ruled the pampas is probably the Argentine equivalent of our cowboy. Of course they were in reality-like the American cowboy-mostly poorly paid, brutally exploited Mestizos. I haven't seen a gaucho movie but I bet there is no horse plop in those either. Before social reformers like Peron the lives of the working people was short and hard-like the gaucho's.
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Robert Gisborn
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Post Number: 43
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2010 - 11:41 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Some additions to my last post on the US-Argentina myths. Of course many of the gauchos and US cowboys were of African heritage-they were black. Also, I hope someone would point out that if many of the gauchos were Mestizos where are all the native indigenous people of Argentina today? The answer is not part of the great American myth. They were wiped out in the same massive native American genocide that swept through the US territories, although Argentina's was more efficient during their great golden mythical age before social reform. Maybe someday the Mapuche will write their version of South American History and loving care of European and American capital interests.
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Roberto
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Post Number: 1993
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2010 - 12:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Robert, it is my understanding that gauchos *were not* of african heritage and that in fact there was animosity between these 2 groups as much as gauchos vs. natives. Gauchos were outcasts to the point that the word was forbidden in speeches in Congress and it was only at the turn of last century that their reputation changed. I believe they also played a critical role in the war for independence like in battles as part of Gral Guemes (Salta) troops. It is also my understanding that Gral.Roca sent many colored people to the front lines in "la conquista del desierto" military campaigns. And indeed this last group was wiped out.

Argentina has many natives everywhere, north, south. They were not wiped out and I have friends who are doctors that actually spent time with natives in volunteering aid programs in patagonia. They have difficulties in integrating (who is to blame for that...) and many live in isolation in remote areas.
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Robert Gisborn
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Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 44
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2010 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Roberto, which academically recommended source for the history of Argentina would you like me to reference.
What's more, I didn't say they were all of black African roots but most-the greater majority were Mestizo or had black African heritage. As far as the Argentina brutal killing of the native peoples I am seriously shocked by your you not recognizing that. Certainly gauchos were used for canon fodder as they were used for brutal agrarian labor. But they did fight well. Argentina has the lowest percentage of indigenous people in Latin America. Your neighbors to the north and west have a much greater percentage. Northern Argentina has some because of its closeness to Paraguay.
And there are probably Mapuches in the south. Chile has a low percentage but most of its population have mixed white- indigenous heritage-not so Argentina and why so.
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Tom
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Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 498
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2010 - 7:28 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

It has been my experience in Argentina that the natives to the land which we call Indians in the US are called blacks in Argentina.
I was sitting in the Argentine Immigration office with an old fried, a retired Argentine Air Force coronel a few years back. He nudged me and directed my attentioon to what we in the US call a black man or African American. It was quite unusual for him to see a black man.
I later was talking to my wife who told me that the native Americans, what we called Indians in the US were were called blacks down there. Their skin coloring is more like our American Indian.
As for gauchos, there doesn't seem to be a lot of true gauchos left in the country. I have seen a few.
It is a fact that, especially after the American Civil War, many cowboys were black but not the same look or coloring of what the Argentines call blacks. A famous US Calvery unit, the 10th Calvery was all black except for the officers. They fought against the Indians for many years in the west.
A friend of mine from North Dakota, a member of the Oglala Souix council told me that they preferred being called Indians rather than native Americans. She explained that many people who were calling themselves native Americans did not have Indian blood at all. By going by the name Indians there was no doubt whom one was speaking of.
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Robert Gisborn
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Post Number: 45
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2010 - 9:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tom. the ethnic groups were mixed. African, American native and European by the 18th century.
A much better example to see this is in Brazil which has-what- 6 times the population of Argentina and also had gauchos(The roots of the word are not certain. Some say it's a word from Mapuchi, but I doubt it because the Guarani would have been the most likely indigenous strain).
Free ranging cattle has changed since the 19th centry. Today we don't have cattle drives. Today we have computers, trucks and machinery. The cattle today get better medical care than the gauchos of the 18th and 19th century. Those gauchos have disappeared.
DNA samples have been taken from the remains of the earlier gauchos so we can be fairly certain of their heritage.
Now, the Europeans, primarily the Spanish and English-less so the Portugese, Italians and Germans were -to a great part-not all-brutal bigots who carried out organized extermination of the indigenous people. Jefferson, a founding father, called for their complete extermination. though he was not so much a bigot as not to do a little "blood mixing" himself. These Europeans didn't "marry" blacks and native Americans but they used them-hence the mixture.
The American cowboy learned his trade from the Mestizos who were trained by the Spanish(horses,burros and cattle were brought to the Americas by the Spanish), hence we have words like rodeo, lasso,vamos,etc., in western English. Why did the black and native american women raise a child of white fathers? Because this child would have a better chance or success than one of her kind.
Now if anyone wants to believe the Europeans who settled the Americas sought jobs at the very bottom of the social ladder, have at it.
But then again all the cowboys I saw in the movies were anglo-saxons and horses and cattle didn't poop and-well I'll leave the "Brokeback Moutain" stuff alone. I stayed clear of bunk houses.
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Tom
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Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 499
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2010 - 9:29 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

From the sources I have seen Gauchos were mostly of Spanish, Portugeese, Ameridian and the now extint Pampean Indians (Charrúa, Minuano) ancestry with a small percentage also of black ancestry. There is in my opinion an excellent book entitled Martin Ferrero which I have read. My wife has also told me that the translation into English lost a lot but I liked it anyway.
Most American cowboys were not blacks no more than they are today. There were some but most were white or hispanic - Mexican Vaqueros, most of the land west of Louisana having been a part of Mexico until after the Texas War of Independence and the Mexican War. It was not until after the American Civil War that freed blacks started to be seen in any significant numbers in the west. That doesn't lessen their contributions in running cattle.
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Tom
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Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 500
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2010 - 9:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Not only was gold dust and gold nuggets used to purchase items in the west but it was very common.
I do not get my information from the movie you speak of. When ever gold was discovered in any one area gold dust and nuggets were used. There weren't a lot of banks and even when there were most people did not trust paper money.
Silver was also widely used. During the silver war the south was forced to use silver and gold to purchase goods from foreign countries, the currency of little if any worht.
I have read a lot of history, watched a lot of documentaris on the History and Discovery Channel and love the study of it. When I first went to college I wanted to be a history teacher it having been my favorite subject in school.
Robert, I have to tell you you are not the know all see all tell all on history.
Where did you get your doctorate from? I got mine from a fully accredited university.
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Robert Gisborn
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Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 46
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2010 - 11:18 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tom, just pulling your chain on the "Brokeback Mountain" stuff. Also, I called the Argentinians overwhelmingly white because they like to self identify as pure European stock. Their mitochondrial DNA tell another story.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2009/12/how-argentina-became-white/.

In Argentina you met someone in a gaucho get up-most likely sipping mate. We have millions of people in the US dressed as cowboys but ask them to shoval out a stall or pull a slimy calf from a cow and they turn their nose up.
As for the American western movies. If you know anything about horses, wagons(they leave wagon tracks everywhere but in the movies) or history itself you know they were BS. For example what have you seen in the movies about the Elfego Baca gunfight. Not much. He was Mexican and the 20 plus cowboys he had a gunfight with fired 4000 shots at him and didn't hit him once. Baca killed 4(he had killed others in one to one gun fights) of them and wounded 8 others. They surrendered. But he was a Mexican and the Earps were white so Buntline wrote about the OK corral,not the Mexican Baca. Not taking anything from Wyeth, he was no one to mess with. The movies miss that he was married to a jewish lady who had him buried in a jewish cemetary-not good legend stuff.
I guess the thing I'm trying to get across is that we can't take the work of a Peron out of the true situations of his time. We can't judge him if we are going to believe myths about Argentina-and I mean that especially for Argentinians themselves. I guess you could go and spend some weeks at an estancia and live a fantasy-great fun. But there is a time to get real.

(Message edited by admin on October 20, 2010)

(Message edited by admin on October 20, 2010)
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Jerri Neese
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Post Number: 1
Registered: 9-2007
Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 2:45 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Robert and et al,

The best information available from the US Census suggests the following for American Cowboys:

Because cowboys ranked low in the social structure of the period, there are no firm figures on the actual proportion of various races. One writer states that cowboys were "of two classes” those recruited from Texas and other States on the eastern slope; and Mexicans, from the south-western region.

"Census records suggest that about 15% of all cowboys were of African-American ancestry" ranging from about 25% on the trail drives out of Texas, to very few in the northwest. Similarly, cowboys of Mexican descent also averaged about 15% of the total, but were more common in Texas and the southwest. Other estimates suggest that in the late 1800s, one out of every three cowboys was a Mexican vaquero, and 20% may have been African-American.

Regardless of ethnicity, most cowboys came from lower social classes and the pay was poor. The average cowboy earned approximately a dollar a day, plus food, and, when near the home ranch, a bed in the bunkhouse, usually a barracks-like building with a single open room.

So by these numbers it appears that somewhere between 30 and 40% were African American and Hispanic. By my math that leaves 60 to 70% other to include Native Americans and European immigrants.

(Message edited by admin on October 20, 2010)
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Jerri Neese
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Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 4:44 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

LOL, not sure where the biting idea came from Robert, but read the following. Also, BTW, Bill Pickett invented bulldogging in the twentieth century.....read on

ROCKDALE - Bill Pickett invented the practice of what we know as bulldogging, or steer wrestling. Like a lot of what used to be strictly ranch activities, bulldogging has become a rodeo sport. The sport consists of jumping on a steer from a horse and wrestling the steer to the ground.

Even if someone else got the bright idea to subdue an unruly steer by jumping on it and biting its lip, that person never admitted it. History gives the distinction to Bill Pickett, the oldest of 13 children born in Williamson County to former slaves. He says he got the idea watching dogs do the same thing when they were herding cows.

Pickett demonstrated his unique skills all over America and in Mexico, South America, Canada and England. Cowboy actor Tom Mix and humorist Will Rogers were among the people who served as Pickett's assistant.

Rodeo and Old West historians differ on where this bulldogging thing first happened, and how. The most popular version, especially locally, has the defining moment taking place in Rockdale in 1903 when an unruly Longhorn steer tried Pickett's patience to the point where he did something drastic; he rode his horse alongside the ornery Longhorn then jumped off his horse onto the back of the steer and grabbed its horns. The steer resisted until Pickett bit the steer's lower lip, at which point the steer became downright docile. Pickett wrestled it to the ground with a compliant thud.

Dora Scarbrough, in her book "Land of Good Water" relates from interviews that Pickett got the bulldogging idea by watching herd dogs. A younger brother relates that Pickett practiced the act that would make him famous in his family's pasture outside Noack in Williamson County. He relates the following account: "Will got to bulldogging down there in the pasture at night. On moonlit nights he would go out there and get on a horse and bulldog. {His parents} caught him at it and brought those cattle {nearer the house} to practice bulldogging so the younger children could see it."

Pickett told a different story to fellow rodeo star Milt Hinkle. Hinkle told Scarbrough that Pickett told him he first bulldogged for real when an angry cow tried to gore his horse Chico. "I just had to keep that old cow from running his horns into my little Chico," Pickett told Hinkle. Angry that the cow tried to gore his horse, Pickett jumped on the cow and twisted its neck until it went down.

"I grabbed her by the lips and started biting her," Pickett said. The ranch boss saw Chico return riderless and went to check on Pickett. He found his best cowboy truly on the horns of a dilemma: Pickett had the cow subdued by biting its lip, but if he let go he would certainly be gored. The ranch boss helped Pickett out of his fix, and a new sport was born.

Billed as the "Dusky Demon" Pickett exhibited his bulldogging skills at rodeos, fairs and exhibitions worldwide. He first received national attention when he bulldogged a steer at the 1904 Cheyenne Frontier Days Rodeo, which had roughly the same appeal as today's Super Bowl.

For a hundred years now, Pickett has been known as theman who invented steer wrestling, though lip biting is a no-no in the modern arena.. Pickett eventually settled in Oklahoma, working the Miller Brothers' 101 Ranch in Boley and touring with their 101 Ranch Wild West Show. He became known far and wide as the man who invented bulldogging.

Not as well known is that Bill Pickett was America's first black cowboy star. He made two movies for the Norman Film Manufacturing Co. in 1921 - "The Bulldogger" and "The Crimson Skull." According to David Davis of the LA Weekly, all that exists from those films are some outtakes - none with Pickett - and a 25-second clip of him performing roping tricks.

Pickett was the first black man to be elected to the National Cowboy Hall of Fame and Western Heritage Center in Oklahoma. In 1993, the U.S. Postal Service honored him as part of its Legends of the West series of stamps, but the picture that appeared on the stamp was of Bill Pickett's brother. The original stamp was recalled and the correct picture printed on the stamp. The back printing on the revised stamp corrects his birth as 1870; the original had him born in 1871. Historians to this day aren't sure.

Pickett died on April 2 after being kicked in the head by a horse he was roping. He approached the horse with a bridle, but the horse began pawing at the brim of Pickett's hat. At 61, Pickett might have lost a step. The horse's hoof clipped Pickett's head and knocked him down. "The horse then jumped on Ol' Bill and stomped his brains into the dust," Hinkle related.

Today Pickett is honored not only with a spot in the Rodeo Cowboy Hall of Fame but also with the Bill Pickett Invitational Rodeo in Oklahoma. Pickett Elementary School in Georgetown is named for him.
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Tom
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Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 502
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 10:28 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Robert. The gaucho in my photo is a gaucho. I saw where he lived. I was looking at buying the property he took care of. There was no estancia main house. It was owned by four lawyers who lived in the city of Buenos Aires.
He was the gaucho, the cattle were spread out over the property, it was in excess of 2000 hectors. There were no crops or farm implents, no tractor, no truck, nothing. This guy was the real thing.
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Tom
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Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 503
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Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 10:48 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

In the earliest of days on the plains where cattle roamed ranchers started branding cattle. Cowboys became adept at lassoing and bringing down unbranded cattle so the ranchers brand could be put on it.
Normally several ranchers got together AT A roundup and in proportion to the numbers of cattle they owned the year before they would band like nuumbers for each individual rancher. The unbranded cattle being either wild or born since the last roundup. If a calf was with a mother that had a brand of course the calf got the same brand.
The cattle were lassoed, brought down and then their legs were "tied" long enough to get the brand on. Then they were set loose to roam the range again. It was not unusual to see a heard of cattle with several different brands mixed in the group.

It was the open range which did not change until the advent of barbwire. But branding did not end then. Cattle would rub up against/scratch the barbwire which often would push the fencing down and the cattle would then graze on the other side.

Maybe this is where the term came from, the grass is always greener on the other side.

I have heard tell of Bill Picket thought I did not know he was credited with the concept of bull dogging.

Cowboys were and are a proud group. They have various uncomplementary names for those who are not like them. They were not high on the country club list. As has been said they worked hard in a dangerous environment doing a dangerous job being alone much of the time for very little pay.
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Robert Gisborn
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Post Number: 48
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Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 11:47 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Jerri, I'm sure you heard of bull dogs. These dogs were bred for the brutal, British sport of bull baiting. The dogs would subdue the bull by tearing at its lip. Later these dogs were "pitted"-put in a fighting pit and fought each other. They belong to a class-not a specific breed-called pit bulls. They are not normally vicious to humans, in fact the Staffordshire is a very sweet dog and loves children. Anyway, do you see where the biting idea came from and hence the name bull dogging. By the way, the original bull dog-the English bull no longer resembles a fighting dog.
In the sport of bull dogging the rider tried to imitate this technique but mostly could only get a ear.
This sport works with a small steer but of course a Brahma or Spanish fighting bull would kill anyone who attempted it.
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Robert Gisborn
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Post Number: 49
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Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 3:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tom, I recently learned one fascinating historical fact. Jeans, pants made of blue denim cloth, were worn in 16th century Europe. An 18th century gaucho or cow boy wearing them would not be an anachronism. The word "jeans" is believed to be from French-but that's not certain. Levi simply added the rivets, the jeans were in this country when he arrived. I found out there are numerous 16th and 17th century paintings of people wearing jeans. The same weave,cloth and dye are often used in jeans made today.
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Carlos Gelbart
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Username: Buellwinkle

Post Number: 23
Registered: 1-2010
Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 3:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

And perfected by Adriano Goldschmied of AG Jeans and partner in Diesel jeans and Citizen of Humanity jeans. Also of honorable mention is 7's for all Mankind, Rock and Republic and who can forget, True Religion jeans.
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Roberto
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Post Number: 1999
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Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 5:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

little off topic... but speaking of jeans I recently saw a program on the history channel devoted to the origins and evolution of jeans and was amazed to find out there is a big market for vintage jeans. Levi's has been paying hundred's of thousands for 19th century jeans auctioned on ebay. In NYC there are a few specialized shops that only deal in vintage with 60s jeans valued in the low 4 digits.
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Robert Gisborn
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Post Number: 50
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Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 8:11 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Roberto, not only were the gauchos of mixed ethnic descent but the studies of the mitochondrial DNA of modern Argentinians show 53% have Amerind DNA and about 4% have black African DNA.
There are no pure races. They don't exist. People judge by RELATIVE skin color. On Hispaniola The Dominicans consider themselves white because they're lighter than the Haitians but are considered black in southern United States. The Spaniards themselves are a mixture of Germanic (Visagoth), Berber, Arab and unidentified ancient cave dwellers. I would think that the Argentinians might consider the people of Chile mestizos. But that's relative. What you mean to say is the darker skinned gauchos suffered discrimination. Well, I'm still waiting for the day when I see a dark skinned President of Brazil, a Mexican President who looks Mestizo-or for that matter a President of Chili who resembles the greater Chili population and not a European. The two true Mestizo Presidents, of Venezuela and Bolivia, are under fierce pressure from foreign capital powers and I expect them to be replaced by "whiter" faces. Paraguay has no significant resources so capital interests don't give a hoot
-same for Uruguay-but Columbia is another story.
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elina overstadt
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Post Number: 35
Registered: 3-2007
Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 8:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Any of you guys here ever heard of the expression "beating a
dead horse"? I think its applicable to this discussion.
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Roberto
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Post Number: 2004
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Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 8:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I believe there is a greater chance to see one day a darker skinned individual becoming President in Brazil than you will ever see a non-white President in Mexico. And you may be right about Gauchos of different ethnicity being discriminated. As for their skin... well, they all had to work under the Sun and under very rough conditions so...

And a general comment... speaking of skins is like walking on a razor's edge so we should always excercise caution and I hope no one takes anything written personally.

Paraguay may be the subject of less interest by the international investment community but it is far from being the underdog when it comes to international intelligence. As you may know or have heard, there is a large enough muslim/irani community in "triple frontera" that has caught the attention of many secret services and the population of undercover agents may be bigger than the local one by now, haha.

But let's not extend this thread to an unrelated topic. Just mentioning it. If you really want to discus this latter subject I propose a CIA/South America thread.
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Geoff Pearson
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Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 9:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

"Beating a Dead Horse"!... well said Elina. It's all a bit tedious.
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Tom
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Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 505
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 5:20 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Robert, you forgot about the Moors who conquered and ruled Spain for a time.
No matter what the color of the skin or the heritage, as long as the person elected got their in a free and fair democratic election. Key words being free and fair
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Kirk Afshar
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Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 5:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

no there were a crusader whom attacked the Muslims and went all the way to Jerusalem and massacre the Muslims all the way (PBC Documentary)available in two CD or Video and now still up to this day still Americans and European Government occupying IRAQ and Afghanistan because they are still Hate Islam and Muslims and occupying Palestine just like there predecessors
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Tom
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Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 8:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

First of all let's get technical.
Catholic Crusaders killed muslims, Arabs, Persians and a lot of other people while being killed themselves.
I am a born again Baptist and raised a Methodist. Both religions have never sent a crusader into the Holy Land.
Christians are being killed these days merely because they are Christians.
Not all Americans hate Muslims. Many Americans are Muslims.
In this country we have what is called seperation of church and state. The term church means any religion. We try to separate the two. We are often called a Christian nation. That does not mean they rule the government.
There are several Muslim nations where the leaders are the leaders of the Muslim religion.

We made a mistake in my humble opinion when we attacked Iraq.
I was all for attacking Afghanistan. People who do not know history don't remember that there were Alquiada bases in Afghanistan. After Osama Ben Laden and his Alquada Muslims attacked the US on September 11, 2001 we asked the brutal rulers of Afghanistan to expell Alquaida. The leaders, the Taliban refused. We had every right to attack that country under the Geneva Convention and the world of civilized nations did not object.
The Taliban were and are a ruthless bunch of Muslim murders. They behead their own, teate women like animals and are just plain dispicable.
They kill anyone who does not agree with them.
They are as bad as any political organization in the history of mankind including the Nazis.
The only thing we did wrong is not finish the job when we first ran them out of the country.
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Robert Gisborn
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Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 8:42 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tom, my heart is with you, but there is over 6 billion people on earth and many wrongs. Given our massive debt who's writing the check for all this nation building and righting of wrongs?
And as advise all young men who want to duke it out, sometimes we're not as tough as we think we are nor is the guy we're fighting as sane as we think he is. We think of wars as lasting a generation they think of them as lasting centuries.
It would be a good idea if we stopped helping nations divide themselves up according to their natural resources as is being now tried in Bolivia and has been pulled off between the nationals and the Kurds in Iraq-and what was done in the Ottoman Empire. Then there's the story of how Chili got its copper. But if you're still interested there's a big one going on in the Sudan over oil.
Tom ,once the largest and most powerful Empire in history tried to play that game. It's now called the UK. Have you read Kipling.
He warned us about the two W's, one is war.
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Kirk Afshar
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Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 8:48 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

well the problems of many western people is they never studied Quran and Islam. all they know about a Muslim and Islam is just a religion like others. this a problem with them most of us who live in the west except a few including Muslim them selves who were raised in colonialist government for a centuries do not have an Islamic Education nor they know how to read a Quran in original Arabic or they have a very limited education about Islam.
Islam is not just a religion is away of life rather is economics medicine or physics or chemistry.
when crusader took over Muslim countries and concurred Jerusalem and andalos (presently Spain) they did not know about any thing in science or mathematics they did not even knew what was "Zero" they translated all the knowledge from Arabic and Persian books and brought it to Europe and all the knowledge they have based on the Islam and the Muslims all the term they use is still Arabic and or Islamic knowledge.
and about Afghanistan and Taliban:
were a friend of George bush so were been Laden family they financed Bushes oil business
2_ Al-Qaeda (in Algerian dialect THE TOILET is nothing but a file in CIA computer Ref What really happened.com
first no one in the eastern world can have enough explosive to blow up still concrete building except those demolition company entire episode of 9/11 was just Hollywood movie nothing else
those who destroyed the building were Bush government dick Cheney and his gangs in the white house to justify invading Afghanistan and Iraq
NORAD was behind it and all wise people know.
now if there were a group of people were involved ( not proven were any Muslims) US and CIA and FBI should had gone after those who committed this crime not invading a country
and as far as Taliban when they were in power when US ask for sundering Osama) Taliban said : if you give us a evidence of been laden was behind this we will arrest him and hand him over
(Ben laden Died of kidney failure on December 2001 and many of his deputies were arrested and many people were kidnapped by CIA and brought to guantamo bay Cuba until now is no proof those people had any thing to do with 9/11 and detainee illegally.
I suggest go and see a movie called loose change they have a site on the internet
all these proof haltered of crusaders for Islam as a complete system of social economical and humanistic faith not an empty religion which people go to church on Sunday and do break the commandment Of god I hope you go and study Islam and the Quran and not justify occupation of Muslim land and killing of millions of Iraqi's ,Afghani's and Palestinians under the banner of democracy or Christianity,
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Robert Gisborn
Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 59
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, October 22, 2010 - 1:51 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Two issues. free and fair elections. The US didn't have free and fair elections until 1919.
Second. Leave the country if you don't like it. That's what many Mexicans are trying to do but the United States keeps sending them back.
Should we do as Susan B. Anthony did, break the law, get thrown in jail, and change the constitution?
This country would not even exist if people had not broken laws and made new laws.
Oh, Argentina's Constitution granted universal suffrage in 1912-before this country did. As for our illustrious founding fathers they wanted nothing resembling universal suffrage but they were OK with human slaves.
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 515
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Friday, October 22, 2010 - 2:27 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Good one Robert.
You forgot that labor unions had to strike and fight police and thugs trying to stop people from getting a fair wage, safe working conditions and a minimum age requierment.
But since our inseption, we have not had a dictator in charge. Presidents have to answer to the will of the people. Roosevelt was elected four times to be president and died in office. But he did not rule with impunity and had to face voters every four years. And he still had to answer to the Supreme Court and the Congress which didn't always give him what he wanted.
Now we have limits on how many times anyone can serve as president.
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 516
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Friday, October 22, 2010 - 2:48 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Kirk, your rantings about 9-11 are insane. An airplane loaded with jet fuel makes one hell of an explosion when it hits a building.
And your assertions about the west learning from the Arabs and Persians doesn't tell it like it is. Who did they learn it from. It came from a much older civilization, the asians.
Muslims hijacked jet planes full of jet fuel and ran them into the twin towers and the Pentagon. They wanted to run one into the capital building but were thorted(sp?) by brave Americans who refused to go quietly into yon good night and gave thier lives not in vain.
You and your conspiracy friends are so full of crap you all have brown eyes. Go figure.
There are Muslims who actually read and understood the Koran from what I have been told. They tell me it preaches not to harm the innocent, to live in peace and love your neighbor(sounds familiar). Why do you guys blow up innocent civilian men, women and children, even fellow Muslims.
You treat your women with no respect and they really are modern day slaves.
You are afraid to educate them because you are afraid they won't put up with your bull---t anymore.
Your justice is stoning and beheading people. How 10th century is that.
People who read the new Testiment of the Bible hear about Jesus stopping a mob from stoning a woman. That was 2000 years ago dude. Get into the modern world. Hell at least the 18th century which is still old but at least there was a symbolance of civility in many countries laws against such barbarity. Uuuppps. I forgot, even in the 18th century you guys were riding and doing who knows what else with camels. I have heard rumors.
Way too much murder and mayhem is done in the name of someones god. Get a life.
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Kirk A
New member
Username: Love_argentina

Post Number: 17
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Friday, October 22, 2010 - 3:20 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

TOM: you’re haltered toward Islam and Muslims and as bad as you had against natives and African Americans. America always has to find invisible enemies.
After Civil right movement still in the south like Mississippi and Alabama and other southern state you still use a “N” word toward African American you still call the Asians and Japanese the name
I have traveled and lived in many southern States
In USA minorities still can not get a same Education, Good Jobs with equal pay is next o impossible
Now your heart is so full of haltered toward Muslims and despite nothing proved any Muslims were behind 9/11 (loose change the final cut in U-tube or loose change the movie) you will understand what I am talking about.
I feel sorry for you whom has so much hatred and backing a US government version and don’t care how many innocent people most of then civilians dying in Afghanistan and Iraq and Palestine as You did not care how many people died needlessly in Hiroshima and Nagasaki .or in vietnam those days communist was your enemies now muslims are who is going to be next?
I can not educate you nor teach you teaching if Jesus Moses nor prophet Mohammed but I suggest go and Read open your mind and see the issue from the point of view not only yours
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2006
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, October 22, 2010 - 4:18 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Let's keep this place cool :-) After all, we all have one pair of eyes, two hands and two legs. Well, some unfortunate don't but ya'll know what I mean.

By the way, weekend is here. So shall we all have a great and pleasant time, including at our beloved forum?
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WTMendoza.com
Advanced Member
Username: Welcometomendoza

Post Number: 480
Registered: 7-2007


Posted on Friday, October 22, 2010 - 4:49 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Gauchos and Cowboys...to 9/11 and flaming posts? Robert - como estas? No puedes limpiar todo esto?
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Robert Gisborn
Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 60
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, October 22, 2010 - 6:59 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Pot favor. no flaming posts nada vi de mi. Este thread ha comienziado no sobre gauchos sino economia, verdad, pero creo este parte la historia de Argentina es importante para a entender la economia de Argentina actual. Respeto la forum y yo no enviaria flaming posts nada. Que quierias limpiar?
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2007
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, October 22, 2010 - 7:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hey, Sean! I see that Robert already answered so here are my thoughts.

re:cleaning... I'd hate to do that. Editing cuts both ways. It can be seen as limiting self-expression and -in forums- be felt as being censored. I have tried asking to stay on topic, instead. And splitted threads conveniently.

But I see your point: straying from the central topic can also lead to chit-chat type of threads where there is no cohesion and ideas flow from one subject to the next confusing those who could have added something. Being focused takes a bit of discipline on the part of the poster and it's also good cyber etiquette. It is good for others and that is why we do it. I am aware though, not everyone can act this way.

A few ideas that may help... when the conversation starts to drift perhaps it is good to:

#1. realize about it,
#2. make a conscious effort to start a new thread.

Starting a new thread DOES NOT require my authorization and ANYONE can do it. By inviting others many more might participate.

About the flaming... well, I may have less patience with that. Over the years we have all blended well. However, we never really discussed heated topics. Bringing up "Peron" in any thread is the fastest way to wake up the animal spirit in us. Or anything related to River/Boca. Temperatures rise fast and before you know it everything is personal. Racial issues, politics, desaparecidos, discrimination, all these are capable of bringing the worst in us and quickly polarize the conversation.

But it doesn't have to be that way, so I propose giving it another try.

And a reminder... there are thousands of registered users with many more unregistered lurkers. Many members here are successful business owners with a lot of experience about Argentina, not to mention the many argentines that are also part of this forum family. We can all gain from each other and being nasty to someone else is a sure way to put off individuals from whom we could have gained another perspective.

Restrain pays.

So the rules of the game are:

A) This forum is about ARGENTINA.
B) We, argentines, expats, tourists, foreigners, visitors all want to understand ARGENTINA, argentines and their circumstances better.
C) Don't take it personal. It is all "opinion".

Take care.
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Robert Gisborn
Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 61
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, October 22, 2010 - 7:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tom, please I don't mean to argue with you but your facts about Muslim history is not accurate. Their contribution to western civilization was immense-too much to mention in a single post. Also your logic can't be followed. Germany was chiefly a Christian nation when they bombed a city in Spain but that does not mean the Christians attacked Spain. Please take an hour and a half or so and watch "Loose Change-the Final Cut". The evidence is overwhelming that that plane was shot down and did not crash because the passengers fought off the hijackers. I really wish I could get you to visit Spain and read a book on the history of Islam and the vast contribution of the people of Islam. See the Alhambra-notice that Al prefix-its in Algebra, Algorithm and Alcohol. Do you wonder why? No they did not learn from the ancient Greeks but because they translated and preserved their writings we know today what they wrote. Otherwise the works would have been lost. What I have tried to show is that any evil which we can hang on another peoples can be hung double on us. Oh, one more thing, is that an Arabian you're riding in the picture?
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 519
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Friday, October 22, 2010 - 8:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Where did you learn to speak spanish Robert. It sounds like Spanamerican to me.

I agree but I have a problem with people who deny historical facts like the holocost and the 911 attack on the US by desciples of Osama Ben Laden.

If we would get clean energy, renewable provided by anything other than oil or synthetic oil or probellant of anything that has anything to do with the enternal combustion engine we wouldn't be dependent on people who hate everyone except someone just exactly like themselves in every way except some are ulgier than others..
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Robert Gisborn
Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 64
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, October 22, 2010 - 10:57 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Por favor Tom, muestranos uno ejemplo espanol tuyo.
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Jerri Neese
New member
Username: Jerri

Post Number: 3
Registered: 9-2007
Posted on Friday, October 22, 2010 - 11:01 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

WOW!!! Let us not be confused here, Islam started with Mohamed around in 632ac, math was first developed in Egypt, Mesopotamia and China beginning 2d and 3d millennia B.C.. Then came the Greeks who further developed maths adding proofs beginning as early as 150 B.C. .

Then following the decline of learning in the West after the 3d cent., the development of mathematics continued in the East. In China, Tsu Ch'ung-Chih estimated π by inscribed and circumscribed polygons, as Archimedes had done, and in India the numerals now used throughout the civilized world were invented and contributions to geometry were made by Aryabhata and Brahmagupta (5th and 6th cent. A.D.). The Arabs were responsible for preserving the work of the Greeks, which they translated, commented upon, and augmented. In Baghdad, Al-Khowarizmi (9th cent.) wrote an important work on algebra and introduced the Hindu numerals for the first time to the West, and Al-Battani worked on trigonometry. In Egypt, Ibn al-Haytham was concerned with the solids of revolution and geometrical optics. The Persian poet Omar Khayyam wrote on algebra.

If you go back in history and read you will find that Islam has done very little to forward learning. One myth that is widely believed is that Islam promoted knowledge, but this is not the case. In later centuries a high civilization did develop in Muslim countries, but this was despite Islam, not because of it.

Gibb says: "The struggle to subordinate all intellectual
life to the authority of religion went on for many centuries in
successive regions of the Muslim world."

In the first and second centuries of Islam "a Muslim's
duty was to practice Islam and not medicine." The KORAN
and the mosque remained the basis of Arab education until the
Abbasids initiated a great age of learning in the 9th century.

Arab civilization was built on that of Greece, Persia, and
Rome. Islam initially set these back. It is said that the
Muslims preserved the knowledge of the Greeks, but it was
already being kept by the Byzantines, Muslims merely
continued this process. All the evidence indicates that Islam
was a danger to Greek thought, and that it was just a lucky
accident that it survived at all under this religion.

In 744 the rationalist Caliph Yazid 111 decreed that the
doctrine of predestination should give way to that of free will.
Then in 762 the capital of Islam was moved to Baghdad, in
Persia, and civilization began again to flourish in the middle
east. This owed more to the ancient civilization of Persia,
which had already been 1,000 years old when Mohammad was
born, than it did to Islam.

"... Persian songs, as well as Persian ideas and
thoughts, won the day...and paved the way for a new era
distinguished by the cultivation of science and scholarly pursuits."

The Islamic world has sunk back into ignorance again,
and even in such great universities as Al-Azhar at Cairo--the
largest Muslim university in the world--the KORAN is the
basis of education. In many schools the children learn nothing
else. The KORAN remains the basis of the law, and the
foundation of the Muslim legal, judicial, and political system,
and the guide to every aspect of life.

I will say that at the moment I am working in a Muslim country and want to know why that is....well because they want and need US and British engineers to build projects for them. There is no college in a Muslim country that offers a decent engineering degree...ever wonder why?
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Robert Gisborn
Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 65
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, October 22, 2010 - 11:56 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Jerri, this is a forum on Argentina, so I'm not free to respond to your contribution. But may I contribute an Arab proverb.
He who knows not and knows that he knows not is a child, teach him.
He who knows and knows that he knows is wise, follow him .
He who knows not and knows not that he knows is a fool, shun him.
Now, let me inject something Argentinian in this. A coach that takes the best football team in the world to the World cup and blows it is...a gaucho. How's that Roberto? did I stay in the thread?
Oh, Jerri have you tried Turkey, Iran, Pakistan, India-that's where the Muslim king built the Taj Mahal. Did you know by the way Arabic numbers are still in use? Oh yes, Greece. Didn't Muslims make that part of the Ottoman Empire? Now, how the heck do I bring this back to Argentina? I got it. They eat halva in Buenos Aires but there is no record of gauchos eating it.
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Jerri Neese
New member
Username: Jerri

Post Number: 4
Registered: 9-2007
Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2010 - 12:21 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Robert I totally agree, this is a forum about Argentina and specifically about Gauchos and Cowboys. But you know when someone posts something wrong.....well hmmmmm

First, your quote is Persian...not Arabic

Second, Turkey - Ottoman, Iran - Persian, Pakistan/India - well not Arabic, none of your choices were

Third, Taj Mahal was built by Shahab-ud-din Muhammad Khurram Shah Jahan I - (smiles) also Persian

Fourth, Greece part of Ottoman empire well yeah, but the Ottoman empire is not Arabic

Look, Islam is involved with many of these and I have nothing against Muslims. But I am also a keen observer of the obvious and not quick to accept non-facts. That is my only point and how we got to discussing Islam is beyond me.

My point was and still is, that someone tried to make the point that Islam is responsible for much of the world knowledge about math, science and astronomy. Well that is just not true. Iraq - home of the Garden of Eden and Iran, developed math, science and astronomy, but these were not Muslim nations at the time.

But back to the topic, laughing a bit at this one....there are almost ZERO Muslim Gauchos or Cowboys........lol
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2010
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2010 - 1:04 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Nemen
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Jerri Neese
New member
Username: Jerri

Post Number: 5
Registered: 9-2007
Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2010 - 1:23 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Roberto.............very good.......at least we appear to have kept a sense of humor about things.....Thanks

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