Politics of American foreign aid... Contact us | Log In | Log Out | Argentina Forums
Travelsur Home | Admin | Register | Edit Profile | Search

Argentina Travel Advice » Travel Tips » Politics of American foreign aid... « Previous Next »
Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 715
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 7:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I couldn't resist James. You could have started it yourself actually.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 174
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 5:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

He is talking about someone with a big butt.
Most things are bigger in the US and that is why there are a lot of lardasses.
However, my favorite restuarant in Buenos Aires, Aguellos Anos, serves a 1 kilo steak for less that ten bucks. Two point two pounds is a big steak. And boy is it good.

Our foreign aid checks are bigger also. Thirteen billion dollars a year the American taxpayer doals out to help poorer countries. Not too many people know that.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Daniel
New member
Username: Daniel

Post Number: 4
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 6:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I normally don't jump in on these discussions, but I couldn't help in asking what is the % of this foreign aid in the total US budget (difficult to determine at the office of management and budget website)? If I'm not mistaken, historically it hovers around 1% maybe 2% at the most of the total budget. Whereas, a bulk of the budget goes to defense. And also, does anyone deny that we (from the US) are not a nation of lard-asses? Just random thoughts, sorry if I offend anyone.

Roberto,
Lard-ass es una palabrota típica que significa “gordito.” Hay otras. Mil gracias por toda tu ayuda con este foro. Es fascinante y muy útil.
Un saludo.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 714
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 7:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ahh... me imaginaba also asi. Gracias Daniel. Todos contribuyen.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James Guglielmino
New member
Username: Jgug1

Post Number: 3
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 7:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

In the unlikely event that the keeper of our site chooses to start a thread about the politics of American foreign aid, I will be happy to join this discussion.
Gug
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 716
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 7:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

We will make this one fit somewhere.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Daniel
New member
Username: Daniel

Post Number: 5
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 8:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

So this will be the place where one could dispute that Americans aren't lardasses and we are the most generous in all the world in regards to the U.S. government's contribution to foreign aid? Please, enlighten me on these matters.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James Guglielmino
New member
Username: Jgug1

Post Number: 4
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Wowweeeee. The US is the "most generous" giver of foreign aid. In terms of absolute dollars. But, why the quotes? Well, it is because the USA is the most stingy and self-interested giver in the developed world: the US ranks twenty-second of the 22 most developed nations in terms of percent of its gross domestic product. WOW! But that isn't all. 80% of that goes to American owned countries. Of the people who know how much the US gives, I bet not many of those know how *little* it gives.:-)
Almost 13% of that aid goes to Israel and almost 10% of it goes to Egypt. Israel, of course, is very, very needy being poverty stricken. (sarcasm) I could not find how much Argentina gets but she is fortunate in being self sufficient. For sure, she doesn't need to import beef. And, she doesn't import any oil or gas for her own use though she imports some to sell to another nation.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Daniel
New member
Username: Daniel

Post Number: 6
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 10:58 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

James, from your input, I believe we are on the same page. But I didn't want to jump to conclusions. I agree, in terms of absolute dollars, 13 billion seems quite generous. But when compared to the defense budget (and I think the reconstruction of Iraq...foreign aid, no?...falls within defense apropriations), it pales in comparisson. I am no believer in statistics and mathematics in general. It can all be twisted for any argument. For instance, you must know the old saying that if there were 7 people in a room and one of them was Bill Gates (or name your billionaire), then statistically, all 7 are filthy rich.
Anyway, according to this survey...
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAi d.asp
The US is greatly lacking in amount of foreign aid as a percentage of the GNP. Note the chart titled: Net ODA in 2005 as percent of GNI
I hope my opinions are not offensive and I am interested in any conflicting views.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 176
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 11:27 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I doubt the US will apologize for being able to generate such a huge GDP. I guess there are some very efficient people walking the streets in those 50 states.
The people who are getting that *little* foreign aid don't seem to be complaining very much. Educated taxpaying US citizens are familiar with what the government does with our money and who gets what percentages.
The US owns Puerto Rico. It was ceeded to the US after the Spanish American War by Spain who owned it before the war along with Cuba and the Philipines. Every once in a while Puerto Rico has free and fair elections where the people vote on whether the majority wants to remain a US possession or be a soverign nation. They always vote to stay. Obviously they know a good thing when they see it. Cuba, which was given its freedom as a result of the US victory after that war, isn't free anymore. Cuba survived on foriegn aid from the Soviet Union until that dictatorship failed. Venezuala has stepped in to fill the void somewhat but even that aid from money they earn selling oil to the US isn't as much as the USSR gave.
We don't own any other countries.
Before we stick our chests out too far, Venezulas oil is also helping pay Argentina debts. Everybody needs somebody.
As noted elsewhere Americans are the very good tippers, the best according to waiters in France, Italy and Spain.
I keep wondering, if the US is so bad, why do so many people who live around the world want to get in. There are so many that there has to be quotas and lottries to limit the numbers.
The US has done a lot of bad things. But let those who have never sinned cast the first stones.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 177
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 11:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The US does spend a lot on its military.
It got into the habit in World War II.
In the first half of the 20th century the US wanted nothing to do with European wars. After the second world war the US spent billions to help rebuild Europe and Japan and kept over one half million of its men maning the barricades to keep the Soviets from taking over. It hasn't been cheap.
Study this, how many times has the US asked its allies in Europe and elesehwere to raise their military budgets so the US could spend less?
The attitude has pretty much been, why should we, we got you.

So the rich guy tells his body guards to kick the s--- out of he two thugs beating up the homeless guy and then gives the homeless guy a thousand dollars. Do you think the homeless guy is going to question why he isn't getting more and why he has such big body guards.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Daniel
New member
Username: Daniel

Post Number: 7
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 12:19 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I cannot disagree with your point in we Americans being kind-hearted, generous, industrious, etc. I am proud to be from the US, but I am not happy about the government and the way we are treating the world and isolating ourselves from everyone else. We supported brutal dictatorships in Africa and Arabia and subverted democratically elected leaders in Central and South America. And because of all this, we are finding ourselves "living by the sword" in regards to foreign policy (forget the aid...we'll deal with that once Iraq is bombed to oblivion). And now it's coming back to bite us in our lard-asses.
The US and its people aren't bad. I hope this wasn't implied. Like I tell my friends (we all being liberal) when they tell me how great Cuba is (I happen to be of Irish-cuban ancestry...pure American) I always reply, that the balseros only go one way.
I only want us to live up to be the great country that everyone perceives. We can do better, we can be more generous, and we don't have to all be such trigger-happy cowboys.
And with that, I bid you all a good night.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jorge
New member
Username: Jorgeschiffer

Post Number: 2
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 12:25 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

REPUBLICANS spend all the money in war... democrats not... we need clinton back to take again the economy.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jorge
New member
Username: Jorgeschiffer

Post Number: 3
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 12:56 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

in Puerto Rico we dont want to be a state, we r very good right now. puerto rico como dicen "no fue cedido por los espanoles" puerto rico fue invadido en aquel momento por los americanos en la guerra hispano-americana y se apoderaron matando a civiles in 1898, in 1917 the shafroth act conferred U.S. citizenship on puerto rico, in 1952 luis munoz marin firma la constitucion and pr adopted our constitution as a Free Associated State or Associated Commonwealth, but we need to be honest, americans dont want to leave puertorico... why ? los primeros soldados que llaman a la guerra representing U.S de donde son ? of course PR, hay varias bases en la isla, example ft buchanan kinda big lol, U.S will not close that base...
puerto rico es mas que un negocio por ser un lugar donde sobra el consumerismo... por ejemplo... borders, walmart, home depot, radio shack, jc penny, sears etc todas esas cadenas nacionales donde mas venden en TODA LA NACION Y SUS 50 ESTADOS es en Puerto Rico. c'me on thats something called "business"... for the usa...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James Guglielmino
New member
Username: Jgug1

Post Number: 5
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 7:13 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

A few points: 1.Along with the American defeat of the Spanish in the hyped up Spanish American War, The Philipines also won a war against Spain, a war for their independence. That was until American Sugar interests prevailed on the President(McKinley)and the US *invaded* the Philipines brutally murdering somewhere between 300,000 and 1,000,000 people in the process. 2.At the time, the Philipines, proud of their new independence, had elected a democratically elected government. At first, the Americans were welcomed until the people found that they had arrived, not to assist but to conquer.
3.When the poster points out proudly that the US is unlikely to apologize for being rich, my sense is that he misses the point. That being that while we have vast wealth, we are tight with it. But that isn't the worst of it. We use it as a cudgel to get other nations to do what our leaders decide we want. shrub Bush famously used quite openly, twisting the arms of nations to make them join us in the ill conceived and ill executed invasion of Iraq, an exercise that wiser nations and wiser people in our own country understood was going to be a debacle.
As to Argentina benefiting from Venezuela, no question that the dictatorships of Argentina were contributory to the Argentinean plight but it is quite reasonable to point out the onerous loans by the great powers that have been widely used to put less wealthy nations under the heal.
On a talk list that I attend, a rather bright member said this, "I'm proud of being an American, for I have the right to say publically that I am deeply ashamed of my government."

"Therein lies one of the few differences between the Bush Administration and the Breshnev Administration"
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James Guglielmino
New member
Username: Jgug1

Post Number: 6
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 7:27 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oh, in addition, while we don't occupy and directly govern many other nations, there are other more efficient ways for an emperialistic nation to dominate other countries. I direct your attention to the Shah's Iran, Hussein in 1960s Iraq, Pinochet in Chile, and the vast and widely diverse, especially in the Caribbean and Latin American regions, American dominated nations. Such American dominated governments were designed not to benefit the peoples of those nations but American big business. Haiti has been invaded so many times one can hardly count, The Dominican Republic, Panama, Venezuela,of course, Batista in Cuba and on, and on, and on. It is probably not prudent to push out our chests because we don't own diverse pieces of land. We have "owned" them and we continue to "own" them. Why do you *think* I am exploring leaving? It isn't because I enjoy so much being a bully and a torturer.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 178
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 8:07 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Good points Daniel

Show me a large nation in history that did not invade someone at some time.

Gotta work
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 179
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 8:08 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

The Phillipines never won a war against Spain
Admiral Perry sunk the Spanish Fleet at Manila at the beginning of the Spanish American war and landed an army to win the Phillipines. Later freedom was given to the Phillipines after the Japaneese invaded in wwII
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James Guglielmino
New member
Username: Jgug1

Post Number: 7
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 8:31 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Show you a large nation that didn't......?Like my response to those who say that others torture, I ask, is *that* the standard that you want for our nation? "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, ......"
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Daniel
New member
Username: Daniel

Post Number: 8
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 11:13 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ahhh...Manifest Destiny. Are we reliving history? I don't particularly think that our foreign policy is to conquer and occupy, but if you are of the "Peak Oil" crowd, our actions in the middle east make much sense. The torture thing most certainly diminishes the perception of a noble cause in the world's eyes and brings greater danger to American soldiers abroad. And perhaps, to American tourists as well. I don't want to sound gloomy, but I feel we as a country could do so much better.

Jorge, tienes razón en que Puerto Rico no fue cedido pero invadido. La guerra hispano-americano era nuestra segunda guerra de la prevención. La primera era con México 1846-48. Los EEUU no van a dejar Puerto Rico simplemente por las razones que nos dijiste. Tu isla está al centro del mar caribe y tiene mucha importancia estratégico. Y ahora con Wal-Mart, McDonald’s, demás…una importancia económica. Pero, dime, que piensan los boricuas? Sois estadounidenses o puertorriqueños? Y encontraste a una motocicleta para tu viaje?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James Guglielmino
New member
Username: Jgug1

Post Number: 8
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 11:15 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

<<The Phillipines never won a war against Spain
Admiral Perry sunk the Spanish Fleet at Manila at the beginning of the Spanish American war and landed an army to win the Phillipines. Later freedom was given to the Phillipines after the Japaneese invaded in wwII>>

Well, in that context, maybe we should say that the American Colonies *never* won a war against Great Britain. Yes, the American defeat of the Spanish fleet in Manila harbor was what precipitated the Spanish leaving the Philipines. The effect of the French fleet under Admiral Rodney that bottled up Cornwallis at Yorktown leading to the defeat of the British is quite analogous. The difference was, of course, that the French did not try to occupy the former colonies. There had been a serious revolutionary effort lodged in the Philipines beginning in 1896 and Revolutionary Government of Emilio Aguinaldo developed a revolutionary constitution of the Philippine Republic. "This document was formed when Emilio Aguinaldo formed a revolutionary government."" This constitution was meant as a provisionary measure until formal independent order could be established
"In 1898 the nationalists of the islands fought for one objective only: to have an independent State whose territory was the same as that until then occupied by Spain. The United States could -and ought to- have been satisfied by an economic compensation from the Philippines for the help extended. Or even by the free use of some port for its war and commercial fleet, Subic for example. But that was not to be. Americans blocked Filipinos from taking charge of their own country, forcing them to start a most vicious war."The United States occupied the Philipines in a brutal war in which the American general in charge essentially ordered what would be called today, an ethnic cleansing. The occupation of the Philipines by the United States was another in the sad chapter of the story of a belligerent and agressive bully, a nation whose moderen governments have used the wealth and strength of the nation to take whatever they wanted instead of using the American ingenuity and wealth to answer the challenges that the world presented her. What a horrific and dastardy betrayal of the American Declaration of Independence and the American Constitution.
This act against the Philipines was and remains indefensible. While I share with you the love for my nation and my hope for the fulfillment of the American dream, there is absolutely no defense for the odious acts of agression that our government has perpetrated. Among these, the invasion and occupation of the Philipines stands out.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jorge
New member
Username: Jorgeschiffer

Post Number: 4
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 11:50 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Daniel, ahora mismo la gran mayoria de los boricuas se consideran puertorriquenos aunque sean ciudadanos estadounidenses, hasta muchos de los que desean que puerto rico sea un estado mas, se consideran muy puertorriquenos, eso si hay alguno que otro que dice q es americano pero son muy pocos. Esto aqui es un estado mas solo que la gente habla dos idiomas espanol/ingles, no se paga taxes federales y no se vota por el presidente si no por el gobernador y comisionado residente del congreso en usa es todo, pero si te vas a cualquier estado puedes votar por la presidencia solo tienes q pagar el pasaje jaja.

Nunca vamos a tener una estrella en la bandera de USA, porque ? no queremos, y segundo tampoco seremos independientes, al final de todo si se logra un estatus de aqui a 50 a~os sera una Republica Asociada que es lo mas conveniente... ya eso es otro tema del estatus.



PD: no e conseguido la moto :-( jajaja a ver si consigo algo
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Daniel
New member
Username: Daniel

Post Number: 9
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 12:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

James,
If I remember my history lessons, our patriots were one of the first masters of insurgent warfare. The only major victory obtained by Gen. Washington was at Trenton, where he snuck over the Delaware during the Christmas holidays and attacked a bunch of drunk/sleeping Hessians. At this time in history, it was considered a dastardly deed and c uncivilized warfare. It wasn't until the might and financial power of France joined the fight that we were able to completely defeat Great Britain.
But I must say, this topic in the forum has become most interesting. You all bring valid points and a lively discussion.
Jorge,
Muy interesante. Es lástima que no podéis votar por la presidencia. Es cierto que no tendiéramos el lío como ahora! Ja. Buena suerte en la busca de moto.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James Guglielmino
New member
Username: Jgug1

Post Number: 9
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 12:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

<<if>>

I don't want to come across as pretending to be any kind of an expert on history. I am a reader and the reference for the following is from the excellent "Washington's Crossing"
By David Hackett Fischer. The story of the Hessians being drunk on Christmas is a myth. The Hessians were very well disciplined and were not drunk on the occasion of the attack. Washington had shown his ability as a leader many times in what were tactical defeats but logistical victories. While the tactics that we think of as being characteristic of the American rebels were scorned, it was not unusual for losers on the battle field to be killed. The Hessians were incredulous over the excellent treatment of men taken prisoner on the battle field that Washington insisted on and many of them were in awe of the new nation as well as its government. Many stayed or went back and brought their families.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lamar Starling
New member
Username: Lamar

Post Number: 7
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 12:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Gentlemen,

While not trying to enter a private debate I am puzzled by the the tone of some of the posts here. We Americans certainly have our share of problems but, having traveled to many other countries, I haven't seen many that offer the opportunities that have been afforded to Americans and Americas legal immigrants.

While we screw lots of things up, I am glad not to have been born in the Middle East, Africa, China, North Korea, Russia and many other places. I am traveling to Argentina in November. I am sure I will see many wonderful things and many not so wonderful things, just as I have seen in all my other travels. I will enjoy the wonderful things.

I pity those who can only find negative things to say about their country, personal lives, friends, etc.

As far as foreign aid is concerned, I am one that feels only those who attempt to help themselves first should receive aid from others.

I don't like the fact that we give aid to many nations. Many leaders of those countries receiving aid pocket the money. Others buy arms to attack their neighbor who probably received aid from us to fight off the attack.

Who knows what the answers may be to attain a world free from strife. I do not believe the answers lie with the Muslims, Jews, Greek Orthodox, Catholics, Scientologists or any other religion. Nor does it depend on the so called New World Order.

It may fully well depend on all countries minding its own business, I don't know.

I do not envy my children or grandchildren. I greatly fear what they are going to face.

Thank you.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Daniel
New member
Username: Daniel

Post Number: 10
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 12:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Very interesting perspective. But I must argue that if the Hessians were so disciplined, why were there no scouts posted on all routes to Trenton and how were the Continentals able to rush through town spreading mayhem? This battle was fought on Dec. 26 and normally (at this time in history), armies would encamp during the winter (Valley Forge?) and much ale and other victals would freely flow during Christmastime. But many times, history is rebuked by further study. I will look into some of my own sources as well. I agree with your latter statement of the treatment of Hessian prisoners. I remember reading somewhere that many of the prisoners switched sides during this internment and eventually were awarded land grants after the war (along with American veterans).
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Daniel
New member
Username: Daniel

Post Number: 11
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 12:58 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Lamar,
By no means is this a private debate and your opinions are most welcome. We all are in agreement that we live in a grand country and a generous country, but are in debate as to the degree of our generosity and how our actions in history are affecting us now. In ways I agree with you on foreign aid. But it seems to me, we pick and choose who to help based on how it would benefit us and it appears we could care less for those who wouldn't. I suppose we could even look within our own shores and the fiasco after Hurrican Katrina. I've heard numerous arguments about how those 'stupid people' should have simply walked out or drove out. But many of those poor folks didn't own cars and the buses for evacuation, if I remember correctly, were staged in a dangerous area. That is they were unusable because the parking lot was quickly flooded. The federal, state, and local governments were all to share in the blame there.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James Guglielmino
New member
Username: Jgug1

Post Number: 10
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Of course, this discussion is no more "private" than any of the other discussions on the site. It seems that Roberto allowed the creation of a monster. I accept credit (blame) for more than my fair share of dissing of the US.
But, look at your post: "While we screw lots of things up, I am glad not to have been born in the Middle East, Africa, China, North Korea, Russia and many other places..." Let me ask again, do those nations really represent the standards that you want to hold our nation to? The bar is hardly high. The concept of our Constitution is so incredibly unique, so wonderful, so full of hope, that when we torture, when we invade, when we give aid that is predicated only on a nation's agreeing to accompany us on an ill conceived, ill planned, morally reprehensible and illegal by international standards invasion, we walk all over our founding documents, all over our flag. This is the origin of my disdain for American foreign policy and the reason why I am looking to leave. I do not perceive that our foreign policy in the mid east has changed a drop no matter which party has been in power and I do not see any significant example of a "George Washington," who would strike down a man who tortured an enemy soldier, on the horizon. Instead, there is a plethora of fear, a plethora of cowardice in our politicians. Our founding father, George Washington, would weep as he must have when Benedict Arnold betrayed his country.
As for giving aid....look for example, at Venezuela's relationship with Cuba. Both profit, Cuba getting energy, Venezuela getting doctors. The US turned down Cuba's offer of doctors after Katrina, I believe. Real bright. If the United States looked at foreign aid with imagination, we could gain the same kinds of advantages as that example time after time. That is win/ win foreign policy, not a foreign policy predicated on taking advangage, as ours mostly is.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lamar Starling
New member
Username: Lamar

Post Number: 8
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 1:18 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Daniel,

Thank you for your welcoming me. I also agree with you regarding the foreign aid. We give it to those we need at the time.

This is true with the Shah of Iran, Noriega, Marcos, Peron.

I do not like the fact that as long as the dictators are our "friends" we look the other way.

I met Marcos at our Diocese in Los Angeles many years ago.

Looking back, I recalled later on in life how well someone could live on $6,000 per year. The Marcos' certainly lived well. We knew he was skimming, but he was our friend at the moment. I personally don't understand why Noriega is in prison. He did everything we asked of him.

While being a conservative in many of my beliefs, I really to like to think about issue before I make a decision. I get just as ticked off at my party as I do everyone else.

Somtimes I think we need a benevolent dictator ourselves. Someone that will make a decision.

When I was an Army Officer I had a sign in my office that read:

Do something, even if it's wrong. That way I'll at least know you're alive.

Our politicians could use that sign.

The Katrina issue goes along with my thought process of one helping ones self before depending on others.

I truly have mixed feelings about the money we are pouring into New Orleans. Hopefully it will become a btter place than it was.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lamar Starling
New member
Username: Lamar

Post Number: 9
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 1:35 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

James,

Your points are well taken.

I certainly want to hold our nation to higher standards than I do the rest of the world. That being said, what has been absent from your posts is ridcule for other nations that have in turn done really rotten things.

Our Middle East Policy is indeed rather faulty.

I have truly tried to remain totally open to the problems faced by all in the region.

I disagree with the fact that Israel has nuclear weapons. I have said many times in the past that if we get into a nuclear war, Israel may be the reason. And before I get attacked from many fronts, I am not anti-semetic. But I disagree with Israels policy as much as I disagree with anyone elses. They, like us, are not perfect.

I also do not agree with the idea of the US not having a trade agreement with Cuba while having one with China.

These thought processes invite ridicule from some of my friends. I do not mind however. I realize that one cannot measure good if one is not has nothing to judge good my. And it is all in the mind of the person doing the measuring.

Have to go for now. I must make some money for my vacation to Argentina.

Thanks all
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James Guglielmino
New member
Username: Jgug1

Post Number: 11
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 1:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

It is quiet interesting for me to find that we agree on exactly *every* item. The absence of trading with cuba seems a manifestation of our fragile egos. Our attempted and aborted invasion of Cuba with the subsequent embarrassment at the Bay of Pigs, that based on our manifest lack of confidence of capitalism as opposed to Communism (which is inherently faulted and could never suceed) led to our fear of Castro which led to our attempt to oust him which led to our embarrassment which led to fifty years or so of sanctions which hurt the Cuban people and the American people. Stupid. The same was true of the sanctions against Hussein's Iraq.
The only thing that I do not agree with is your implied assertion that I should be criticizing other nations. Why? Until I am able to influence my own nation to greatness, how can I criticize other nations? On another site, the Mooney Talk List, I have severely criticized Israel's policies. I deplore the deaths in East Timor. I dispised the deaths in China. In two out of three of those, the United States is implicated as supporting what was done. Let us make our own nation great. Let us put her in the postion of always supporting what is right and just for the world for everyone involved. Then, there may be isolated situations that we may find where we can and should criticize other nations. Why isolated? Because when the greatest nation in the world acts as it should, others will follow our example.
Gug
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Daniel
New member
Username: Daniel

Post Number: 12
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Now we are moving to the Cuba question! Ha. To tell you the truth, I have many questions about our nation's policy towards Cuba and the powerful influence the Cuban-American Community has on Florida's politicians (and since 2000, Florida=America). I too find it sickening that I can visit Communist China and even Vietnam for that matter, but cannot legally go to visit my 2nd and 3rd cousins in Cuba. Isn't this a violation of my Constitutional rights? Most of my family would deliver me a head-butt in the style of Zidane if they heard me say such things. But why is it that visiting Cuba is so heinous while sending remittances is not? Both would allow the cuban government to take their cut (which, I believe is the basis for such an embargo). And as for the Cuban doctors ready to assist the victims of Katrina...I feel the administration made a big mistake in not allowing them in. The best thing that could have happened is an improving relationship between our two countries. But we all weren't born yesterday. This was simply a political move by Castro and he probably knew darn well that Bush would never accept his "aid." Also, most likely, many of the doctors would have defected and been an embarrassment to Castro.
Lamar, sorry to hear you were an Army Officer...(insert joking tone of voice). I too was an Army Officer and probably the only liberal platoon leader in Clinton's Army of Peace (as I like to call it...insert sarcasm tone now).
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Gustavo Flores
Junior Member
Username: Xgustax

Post Number: 38
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 4:21 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

whats the point of this thread? haha
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Daniel
New member
Username: Daniel

Post Number: 13
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

To get it all off our chests so that we can enjoy the planning of our trips to Argentina and leave behind our angst.
What do Argentines think of Americans or America in general? Curious minds want to know. Ha.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Gustavo Flores
Junior Member
Username: Xgustax

Post Number: 39
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 5:06 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

nevermind
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James Guglielmino
New member
Username: Jgug1

Post Number: 12
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 5:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Didn't you see, Gustavo? Roberto couldn't resist.
"I couldn't resist James. You could have started it yourself actually."
To be serious though, I didn't really think this delightful and oh, so helpful site was the place. That is why I needled Tom Woodson about his original pat on the head to American foreign aid...Sorry, Tom. I *did* also warn that if there was a place for it, I would cheerfully donate to it.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Gustavo Flores
Junior Member
Username: Xgustax

Post Number: 40
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 5:23 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Daniel Mexico is part of North America NOT central America.... haha
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Daniel
New member
Username: Daniel

Post Number: 14
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 6:18 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Gustavo,
When did I ever say that Mexico was part of Central America? I told Jorge that Mexican American War was probably our first pre-emptive War in 1846-48. Also, this thread may shed a bit of light on some of the issues in the forefront of North American politics and issues in our news. It seems, or is apparent, that this country is becoming dangerously polarized not only in regards to other countries, but with ourselves. "You are either with us, or against us." Liberal vs. Conservative. Republican vs. Democrat All of this is not good enough for me. Perhaps our seemingly meaningless rambling, will not help you understand what is going on in this country, but it may be beneficial to others to know what we are all about.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 721
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 6:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

A short break... as I emailed Gustavo, the point of this thread was exactly what Daniel said "...To get it all off our chests..."

We all have more things in common than we suspect -besides the interest in Argentina- and like chatting by the watercooler, it helps in bonding.

Any other non-travel thread will be part of 'marketplace/miscelaneous'...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Gustavo Flores
Junior Member
Username: Xgustax

Post Number: 41
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 7:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

OK I understand now sorry. I have been totally weirded out today sorry about that. Yeah sorry but you said something up on top about Centeral America and South America. Well I understand what you are talking I agree with you We have become polarized with ourselves.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 180
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 9:01 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

James, I do not believe in torturing anyone. Please don't accuse me of something I do not condone por favor.

I think it was Willie Nelson who said "Momma, don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys."

Democrats will spend money on war reluctantly, but they don't like to spend money on body bags.

Jorge, in English por favor. Give us all a chance to respond. Puerto Rico enjoys all the perks of statehood without it's citizens having to pay Federal Income tax. there are bombing ranges in Florida and a lot of other states. We all want it all but we all can't have it all.

That's not history James, and your facts are way bloated. Give me one credible source for your numbers. The Phillipines was owned by the Spanish until they were defeated by the US. The Phillipinos were fighting the Spanish at the time of the US invasion. The US took control of the Phillipines for a long time. Ironically prior to the Japaneese invasion in WWII the US was preparing to give the Phillipines its independence. That had to be delayed until after the US reinvaded the country and drove the Japaneese out. We maintained bases there at Subic Bay and elsewhere in the country for quite some time. Without doing any research I believe we have turned over all of our military facilities there to the Phillipines now.

I am not a fan of Bush, voted against him two times, I have done all I can to show my disapproval other than voice my full disdain for him, his henchmen and his policies.

Isn't it odd that with just under two months to go till the elections the price of gas has dropped so dramatically.

James, who have you bullied and tortured. By your reasoning every Argentine citizen is a torturer and murderer just because they live in a country where a military dictatorship was that tortured and murdered thousands of it's own citizens. Running away is not the answer. I am going to assume you are a voter and an active advocate of peace and justice, not a bully or torturer just as none of my Argentine friends are torturers or murderers. What utopia are you planning to move too where everything and everyone are perfect?

The analogy of the Revolutionary War and the Spanish American War is obsurd. The French saw an opportunity to help the colonies defeat an enemy that the French had been fighting for a hundred years. In fact in Europe it is called the Hundred Years War. The US went to war with Spain for among other reasons, to gain military bases in the far east. Was it right or wrong, that is not my argument, I am arguing the facts. Emilio Aguinaldo's revolutionary government was never recognized by any soverign nation ever. The United States was recognized at the end of the Revulotionary War by Great Britain, France, Spain, Italy, etc.

You sound really bitter, I do hope you find the utopia you seek in all sincereity. The beauty of the country you live in is you can say as much as you want to about how screwed up the nation is and no one is going to stand you up against a wall and shoot you. They may illegally wiretap your phone conversations but I assure you that is not the American way.

Daniel, before the Revolution there was the French and Indian War as it was called in the colonies, which was another part of the European Hundred Year war. The British, the French, their Indian allies snuck around and attacked defenseless civilians brutally murdering them way before Washington attacked those poor drunk German mercenaires who were bought and paid for by those honorable gentlemen from England. After the defeat instead of masacreing them they let them march away with the promise that they would go back to Germany and not come back. Sounds fairly civilized to me.

At the battle of Bunker Hill which was actually fought on Breeds Hill the British attacked the American Army repeatedly and were repulsed until the Americans ran out of amunition and retired in good order from the fight. A costly victory for the Brits. George Washington was not the only American general to win victories against the British, at the Battle of Saratoga an entire British Army surrendered to an American general who had no help from the French whatsoever.
After that the French decided to join the fight. But without that help the colonists would never have given up the fight. They knew very well that thay had to hang together or they would certainly hang seperately. The French intervention shortened the war and for that I am thankful. Viva la France.
General Nathanial Green won the battle of Cowpens and a couple of others. There were other American Generals and other American victories.
The Hessians were hung over from a night of partying. What else was there to do in a frozen foreign land. But they never expected an attack in the dead of winter. Washington's major fault as a military leader was forgetting to guard his flanks. It cost him two winnable battles. Oh yes, the Hessians were quite surprised at their treatment after the battle given the fact they had executed several hundred Continental soldiers who surrendered in a privious battle.

Excellent observation Lamar

It wasn't doctors the victums of Katrina needed, it was a means of evacuation. Once they were evacuated they were taken to hospitals if there was a need. Bringing in Cuban doctors would not have helped. They would just be more people who had to be fed and housed. One of the real problems after Katrina was that 5000 Louisiana National Guardsmen were not available to help get their people out. Guess where they were.

The embargo on Cuba is rediculous. It is a political apeasment by both parties to the Cuban American community, or at least a part of it, in Miami. I for one can't wait to visit that beautiful Island. Just 90 miles away is a vacation paradise. I wonder how long it will take for the Cuban economy to flourish after the American toursit are allowed to go back. I think a lot of other island destinations will feel the hit when Cuba is no longer off limits.

Noriega was a drug dealer. He is in prison because of that and he pissed of the wrong people. Ronald Reagan did not like drug dealers.

We pour money into New Orleans because it is the right thing to do. Just like we do every other time any part of our great nation is hit with a disaster. I am a Floridian. I can't count the number of times I have seen those out of state power trucks come diving down the road.

The support we give Israel and their policy is justified when people all around them only want to kill them. Iran's president calls for the anniliation of the Jewish state at every opportunity. He is just one. And I find it very offensive that every time someone says something bad about Mohammed Muslims go berserk and kill defenseless nuns who are only trying to help the poor. If Christians did the same thing every time someone made a joke about my Saviour, the US would have nuked the middle east into the stone age a long time ago.

Americans as well as poeple from other countries are individuals. "we" don't torture, murder, kill, invade, or do any other dispicable acts. Some Americans do and some poeple from other countries do also. They will pay the piper. I cry out in rage when things like that happen.

I worked at the Super Bowl last Feburay in Detroit which has a huge Muslim population that gets along just fine with Christians, Catholics, Jews, Buddists and all the other religions. Why. Because in this country we have religious tolerance for all and our Constitution guarrantees it. Sometimes you just got to look on the sunny side of life.

The Mexican American war was about Manifest Destiny. The Mexicans were in the way, purely and simply. We bought Florida from Spain and the Louisiana Purchase from France, I guess the Mexicans just weren't willing to sell.

Well, this is pretty much my answers to the posts today.

Hasta luego Amigos
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Daniel
New member
Username: Daniel

Post Number: 15
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 10:15 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tom,
A very informative post. Thank you.
The only disagreement I have is with this statement:
The British, the French, their Indian allies snuck around and attacked defenseless civilians brutally murdering them way before Washington attacked those poor drunk German mercenaires who were bought and paid for by those honorable gentlemen from England.
I am certain that the colonists didn't learn about massacres from the French and Indians and were well capable of doing the same long before both wars. (Mystic River massacre of around 500 villagers, 1635 or so is one such instance).
But otherwise, your post is quite informative.
Gustavo,
No te preocupes. There is no need to be sorry. You sort of jumped in the middle of the fray, so to speak. I only hope we do not come across as "typical." As you can see, we all certainly are not.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Daniel
New member
Username: Daniel

Post Number: 16
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Oh, by the way...
Puerto Ricans do not enjoy all the perks of statehood. They cannot vote for president and I believe, lack representation (through voting powers) in Congress. And as for enjoying the lack of the federal tax man, I am certain that Puerto Rico more than makes up for it in local taxes.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Jorge
New member
Username: Jorgeschiffer

Post Number: 5
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 11:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

if puerto rico have a chance to vote for president in USA, democrats will win always!, 4millions of democrats live here in PR...no matter if the ppl here r pro state or not, all are democrats, thats why a lot of republicans dont want to puerto rico become a state.... and thats why all the democrats wants puerto rico to become a state, to win always the presidential election. bingo!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 181
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Wednesday, September 20, 2006 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Daniel
Floridians and every other state pays federal income tax and LOCAL Taxes. Advantage Puerto Rico.

You are right about their federal legisltors. They have elected representatives that have non-voting observer status in the legislative branch.

They have the benefits of Federal Courts, FBI and all other US federal police agenices, the US Coast Guard, the US Military, US social services including education and all other benefits and protections that any other US citizen has without having to pay any other Federal income tax for.

I would think they do pay some federal ueser taxes such as federal gasoline tax.

A fact, Floridians pay more in federal gasoline tax than they get back in federal highway maintenance and construction funding which is what the tax is for.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 182
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Wednesday, September 20, 2006 - 11:47 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Jorge
Sounds like there are 4 million very intelligent people in Puerto Rico.
I have always been in favor of Puerto Rico becoming a state.
51 sounds pretty good to me.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 183
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Wednesday, September 20, 2006 - 12:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Daniel

Prior to the Revolutionery War, the colonist were British. The masacre you speak of that ended the Pequot War was carried out by British subjects and their Indian allies the Narrangansett indian tribe.

Colonists were massacred by native Americans also including my ancestors Doctor and Mrs John Woodson if memory serves me correctly in 1563 in Virginia.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Daniel
New member
Username: Daniel

Post Number: 17
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 20, 2006 - 12:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

They were colonists, nonetheless. Whether British or not, massacres occurred on both sides, but I would dare say that the Native Americans ended up with the short end of the stick. We can probably argue over that one too.

Do you dabble in genealogy? Fascinating that you can trace your family history that far. There were treaties between Britain and numerous tribes, weren't there? If I am not mistaken, many of the Indian massacres of colonists occured when the latter encroached on Native lands "guaranteed" by Britain. I can't remember the names of some of these treaties. Of course there were instances of unwarranted killings and I am not insinuating that your family was breaking any laws or treaties. Just random thoughts.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James Guglielmino
New member
Username: Jgug1

Post Number: 13
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 20, 2006 - 1:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

<<colonists>>
Can you validate that date? I always thought that the first Virginia settlement dated to the early 1600s and Internet search seems to document that.
Gug
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 184
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Wednesday, September 20, 2006 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Daniel No offense taken, merely an example

Native American tibes were waging war on each other long before the colonists and other Europeans came to the new world. They fought over land, hunting areas, stealing individuals, some for the sport of it. They even fought non deadly battles where warriors from one tribe would attack others and instead of killing they simple bested the other by tapping them on the head, a practice know as "counting coup"
The

James, I will check on the date for you.

Columbus's journey to the new world was in 1492.

Very brief search's reveal

In North Carolina the first English colony was in 1585. There were English settlements in Virginia and Massachusetts before that.

St. Augustine, Florida is the oldest continuously occupied European settlement in the continental US. The city was founded by the Spanish admiral Pedro Menéndez de Avilés on August 28, 1565.

More to follow, gotta work
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 185
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Wednesday, September 20, 2006 - 9:21 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

James
I have checked on the date. It was 1644

John Woodson and his wife Sarah Winston were immigrants arriving in Jamestown in 1619 on the ship George. Aboard was the new governor, Sir George Yeardley, about one hundred young Englishmen who would become settlers, and Woodson, a “surgeon” for the company of English soldiers protecting the new colony.

In 1644, Opechanako, the Indian chief, led a sudden attack on the Virginia settlements killing 300 settlers. On the second day of the massacre Dr. John, who was returning home from a visit to a patient, was killed within sight of his house. Mr. Ligon, a traveling shoemaker and tinker who happened to be at the home, and Sara Woodson defended the house with great courage. They hid the Woodson's two little boys at the first alarm. John was hidden under a wash tub and Robert in a potato hole, a dugout area to store potatoes. Ligon grabbed the old family gun and killed seven Indians at the first fire and two at the second. Two Indians came down the chimney into the log cabin. Sara scalded one with a pot of boiling water and, seizing a roasting iron, brained the other. The howling mob took flight. The sons were thereafter called "Potato Hole" and "Wash Tub" Woodsons. The gun which was enormous, seven feet long, is at the Virginia Historical Society. It was a "blunderbuss" which is much like a shotgun that sprayed a pattern of shot but over a much larger area.

I was also wrong about the wife being killed. She lived until either 1669 or 1670. There are conflicting dates of her death.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Orlando Martinez
New member
Username: Bracsim

Post Number: 1
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 9:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Who said Cuba is great??? Cuba is hell, after 47 years of comunism the only thing you can find in Cuba is broken hearts, poor people, broken families,jails,politicals crimes, a lot of pain in every cuban heart, for those who believe in Castro and comunism, take a plane and visit Cuba but dont go where Maradona goes all the time, go to the real Cuba out in the streets, meet the real Cuba and you will see, poor Cuban people, I hope they can get their freedom soon. And for those who dont know much about cubans a can tell you that cubans are pro americans 100%, they wish they could be part of the USA, been part of the USA means been free forever. God bless the USA.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 233
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 9:35 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Orando
Are you or your ancestors Cuban?

I would say the country is great and for the most part the people are but I have serious issues with the communist government.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Juan
New member
Username: Callmejuan

Post Number: 12
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 9:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Orlando, outside USA people don´t buy that kind of propaganda.
God bless the world.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 234
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 11:22 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ok Juan, where are you from.

I know a lot of poeple in Argentina who do buy the truth in what Orlando is saying and they agree that the despotic Communist dictator, Fidel Castro needs to go away so that Cuba can start it's climb to freedom. Millions of people all over the world buy the truth.

US citizens, formerly Cuban citizens send money home to their relatives monthly to support them. These US dollars help the poor of Cuba survive.

Cuba has a huge population that is under the poverty level.
Prostution is rampent in Havanna and other large cities.
1956 and older US made autos are everywhere.

Now that the Soviet Union no longer exists, this relatively small nation is no longer getting the $3 billion dollar yearly payment. Chavez and his oil money is trying to help but there are a lot of poor in Venezuela to feed also.

Tourism is still a big business but there are large portions of the country that you cannot visit due to the threat of being robbed, kidnapped or murdered.

Just because someone who knows what they are talking about states the truth and it is not what others may want to hear, it does not make it false.

A democratically elected government in Cuba is hopefully the future of that beautiful Island. Dictatorial Communism is a failed form of government. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 235
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 11:29 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

And by the way, we have in the US a freer and more diverse news system than anyone else in the world, including the Europeans.

We have CNN, MSNBC, Fox, Headline News, CNBC, Bloomberg, the BBC, that are all dedicated to reporting the news 24 - 7. And we get both sides of the story. Fox is the conservative republican source while the others provide in many instances the opposite point of view.
And that is just the tip of the iceberg in news sources.

Seldom do you hear of a reporter being shot in the US like the one who was recently murdered in Russia or the murder of Daniel Pearl in Pakistan a few years ago.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Daniel
New member
Username: Daniel

Post Number: 18
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 11:59 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

It looks like we are bringing up a dead horse and going to kick him around a bit more....but I agree with Juan. This "Gott mit Uns" mantra has to be dumped in order for us to get along with people.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Juan
New member
Username: Callmejuan

Post Number: 13
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 3:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Tom, for your records I´m argentine.
I tried to share some ideas and facts with my basic english.
I know a lot of people in Argentina who don´t buy the truth in what Orlando is saying.
I saw the same broken hearts, poor people, broken families, jails, etc in New Orleans area after Kathrina.
I hear that approx 600000 people die in Irak after the US & Asoc. invasion so if this is the american freedom, no thanks. Some people don´t know or care how many blood is necessary to fill the tank.
Unfortunately to the world US Government becomes more and more banana republic style with a lot of military power. We have a phrase for this "Mono con metralleta" (Monkey with a gunmachine)
In today newpapers you can read that bush sign -x- on a new law with a lot of human rights restrictions for the american enemies so make your conclusions.
Propaganda: In almost all american movies or tv shows phrases like: God bless America or the Land of freedom.
Propaganda: In all american movies or tv shows US flags (even in gangster´s cavern - hilarious)like in Berlin in late 30´s
I think yeah, give me a break!!! The Hollywood idea of US is so far from the reality.
Sorry, but for me "freedom" has a different mean.
Rome was only good for the romans.
Anyway many thanks for share with us your points of views.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 236
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Juan, I don't keep records on my friend, I was Just asking, I am a US cizizen who has traveled a lot in Argentina and love the country.

I am not a fan of George W Bush and am against the War in Iraq.

Katrina was a disgrace and I blame much of the lack of immediate response on the fact that 5000 Louisana National Guard troops who are normally first responders in each states emergencies were in Iraq. I do not know what you mean by jails.

Invading Iraq is not the American dream. It is being able to earn an honest days wage for an honest days work. It is having a home, a car, an education, and all the good things that are available in the US. The American dream is so strong that quotas have to be in polace to limit the numbers of foreigners who can immigrate to the country. People break the law to enter the country illegally in the thousands to be able to get a taste of it.

The US is not the souce of all evil in the world. We have good
and bad people sort of like every where else in the world.

We have a lot of unflattering phrases also about people from other countries just like yours. No need to go into them.

What Bush's laws say are still subject to judicial review and the things he was doing was found to be in violation of US law by the Supreme Court. He has a lot of power but he is not above the law, unlike dictators.

What is your definition of "freedom"

For 230+ years we have had a constitution that guarrantees freedoms and the right to vote.

Freedom is what Hollywood is all about. They can make up as much bs as they want to and it is ok because of freedom of speech.

If you think all that Hollywood says about the US is true than you obviously have no clue about what the US is like. American movies are made by people, not the government.

I am proud to be an American. I served in the US Army and am proud of that. I do not like seeing my country's service people dieing in foreign countries. The Irag ware is a mistake in my opinion but it wasn't the Armies idea to go there. They follow orders just like soldiers from all countries do.

Different opinions are everyones God given right. Too bad some men do not agree with that. But it is guarranteed to US cigtiznes in the Constitution.

Peace brother.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Orlando Martinez
New member
Username: Bracsim

Post Number: 2
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 8:34 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

God bless you Tom because you are right. Juan I did not know that the truth is now call propaganda. I dont want you to buy my story because you will never understand, If want to know about cuba you must talk to a cuban or visit cuba. Do you know that my father was sent to jail for 9 years just because in 1961 he said that Castro was bound to be a comunist dictator? Do yoy think is right for somebody to stay in power for 47 years? Do you know that Che Guevara killed over 70 political prisioners in Cuba in the begining of what they called revolution? Juan my friend I`m not here to tell you what to do but I can tell you the truth, I was born in Cuba in the city of Pinar del Rio, I escape the island in 1990, I have not seen my mom and 4 brothers for 16 years just because if I go to cuba they put me in jail, they put me in jail because I`m the enemy, because I`m freedom, in Cuba freedom is ilegal, dont get mad at me my friend, I just want you to know the truth, the end of that revolucion is coming and when it does you and everybody will know the truth. I`ll be back later with a website I want you to visit and take a look, see for your self. A friend Orlando Martinez.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Juan
New member
Username: Callmejuan

Post Number: 14
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 8:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

..I do not like seeing my country's service people dieing in foreign countries. The Irag ware is a mistake in my opinion but it wasn't the Armies idea to go there. They follow orders just like soldiers from all countries do. (SIC)

Don´t like war? Don´t start one!
War is not a mistake is a crime for human being.
US Armies are in Irak because US Government put there.


Peace for you, peace for all.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Orlando Martinez
New member
Username: Bracsim

Post Number: 3
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 8:49 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

www.therealcuba.com I want you all to take a look at that website, that is the real cuba, the truth about the Castro`s revolution, click on top to see the pictures , Cuba`s Healthcare, Cuba`s Children, Che, take time to see every one of them, that is the truth Juan my friend, I`m telling you all this because I dont want your beautifull country to turn into hell like Cuba. The pictures from the Hospital were taking by two Spanish reporters and the other pictures from diferent sources, a picture never lie, never. My friend Juan do you want that to happen to your country? I know after you visit that website you will beleive me, from now on you`ll be my friend, trust me.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 793
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I would normally not participate in a thread about politics, however, I felt compelled to drop a few thoughts... Without really knowing the truth about Cuba, we -argentines- should give Orlando the benefit of the doubt (so to speak). As we well know, most of us were simply unaware of the torturing that was going on during 1976-1980 and at the time many people had many different truths, including those who escaped the regime and told about their own torturing to The Hague international court who heard in disbelief. So who knows what really goes on there? And who knows how many truths there are? Is it the truth of cubans living in Miami or that one of cubans still in the island?

We shouldn't judge other people's opinion. At least, not in such harsh way. Here, we actually have a rare opportunity to learn from and about others. And I leave this thread with my today's tale, a true story.

While shopping at a Radio Shack near my house this morning, I noticed a customer becoming aggresive with one of the cashiers, a latin male employee. The american customer visibly calm kept giving the cashier the hardest of times by saying how bad customer service was until he got what he wanted, upsetting the employee who lost control and asked the customer to leave in bad manners. The american customer used this opportunity to upset the employee even further and said: "You have a big mouth for a little size" at which point the staff erupted violently and threatened the customer that he would prove that "such little size can do big damage" following with "let's take it outside and I am gonna make you disappear in 2 seconds".

The Radio Shack employee called the police to straighten out the situation while the customer called his lawyers, took note of names and phone numbers from witnesses and told the clerk "in the US you can speak freely but you CANNOT threaten people. Once you do this, you have committed a crime".

I left the shop feeling sorry for a peer but couldn't help it but think I had witnessed an invaluable lesson in "freedom of speech" and what it really means. I also thought how difficult it is to understand the concept to us, non-americans, and how blurred our boundaries are when it comes to "opinions" and "actions". Like it was said many times, everyone is entitled to an opinion and there no opinions more valid than others...
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Daniel
New member
Username: Daniel

Post Number: 19
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 10:56 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Wow Roberto! I think you have given us all a priceless lesson in valuing others opinions and how one person's actions could influence other's. For the life of me, I cannot understand why so many of my countrymen(and women) will not live by a simple rule: When in Rome, do as the Romans do Si a Roma fueres, haz como vieres or something to this nature. I will not pretend to be on some sort of anti-american soap box, because we as a whole are good people and I am certain this is true with every country. Don't judge us all by our government's (or one man's) actions.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 237
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 11:47 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Juan, I don't like war and I did not start one. Ever.
The US has a President, He is the commander in chief of the Armend Forces. He is the one who tells the Army and other services to go to war.

I did not vote for him and unlike many of my countrymen and women who didn't vote at all I voted for his opponents two times which is all I could legally have done.

Your selfrightous opinion does not lessen the pain of knowing that my countrymen are giving their lives honorably by doing their duty while knowing that they would rather live and grow old just like anyone else. Did you know that ten US servicemen died today. Do you think that makes us proud.

And what about the thousands of innocent Iraqis, Christians and Muslims alike who are also dieing every day. Do you think that makes me happy.

Let me ask you this, how do you feel about the 5000+ Argentines who died at the hands of your own government not too many years ago. Oh that's right, you weren't told by your free press how many had been killed each day. Does that make it easier. I am not accusing you of starting that war so give me the same curtesy by not telling me not to start wars.

I would just like to see everyone in the world give peace a chance.

As far as the Iraq war is concened, the most hurtful part about it is that now that our men and women are there, we can't leave. If we did there would be a bloodbath so horrific you can't imagine. Far more Iraqi's are killed by other Iraqi's every day then are being killed by our soldiers. All we want is for them to stop killing each other and let us leave.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Daniel
New member
Username: Daniel

Post Number: 20
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 12:08 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Catch-22.
We can't stay and we can't leave. What a mess. Already three people I once served with have died in this stupid war. Does anyone at all (Rep. or Dem) have any sort of plan in this matter? And what ever happened to the Powell Doctrine?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Juan
New member
Username: Callmejuan

Post Number: 15
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 1:44 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dear Tom, as many argentines I know the difference between US Citizens than US Governmet. I believe you are a peacefull gentleman and my opinions are not against you or your countrymen. I also love your country but read some unflattering phrases -not from you- at this moment of the world situation is too much for me. Regarding my country most of the criminals who kill 15000+ people are behind bars, hope you can do the same with the people who start a war only for business.
You have many reasons to be a proud american as I have to be argentine. Probably more people like you or me, worried about the whole world make the difference in the near future.
Please excuse me if you feel me so rude but remember my early advice about my english.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

James Guglielmino
New member
Username: Jgug1

Post Number: 16
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 7:33 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

<<as>>

With respect, a correction, please, Tom. We *can* leave. We know that as long as we stay, the killing will continue. We *don't* know what will happen if we leave. It is possible that the killing will subside. We know, based on experience what happens if we "stay the course." We don't know what a new plan may bring. It is past time to try it. That is not likely to happen with George Bush in the White House. George Bush and his immediate advisors should be tried in a similar manner that some of the worst Argentineans were tried. Our "free press" is just barely telling the story.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 238
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 6:02 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

James, I am all for us pulling out today.
I was for pulling out the day before we went in.

It was the wrong war at the wrong time.

After the military went in W sent over a whole continegent of aides, campaign workers and election violenters who were looking for work after the campaign of 2000. When the guy they put in charge asked the very young looking aid they had sent him who were the other members of his staff he was told that the strategic planners were a good group that he could trust because they were frat brothers. In an interview later on the guy said he never imagened he would ever hear the terms "strategic planners" and "frat brothers" in the same sentence. From there it went down hill.

The first administrator for lack of a better term didn't last a month before a replacement was sent in. The new guy immediately disbanded the Iraqi army who up until that time had been very helpful to the US Military, a classic lack of communication. What are 300,000 fully armed soldiers going to do when they loose their job. Go to work for the first war lord who offers them a pay check which of course is what happened. With one stroke of a pen we went from liberators to occupiers.

There was an excellent two hour special on PBS just the other night about the continuous blunders by the civilians put in charge who from the very beginning of the attempt to create a new democratic Irag were made one right after the other.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Orlando Martinez
New member
Username: Bracsim

Post Number: 4
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 7:42 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Juan did you visit the website I gave you? www.therealcuba.com Let me know what you think about it and if you can pass it on to your friends, I think is a good way to learn about Cuba. Atentamente Orlando.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 239
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 11:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Not to worry Juan.
You are obviously a carring and decent person quite typical of the vast majority of Argentines I have met.
Unfortunately if you are President of this country and do things that argueably are legal you can get away with stupid and evil decisions.
A deserter of the Alabama Air National guard who never had to answer in a military court for his cowardice has sent many a young American serviceman to an early grave.

May God bless you, Orlando, and all of our countries.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 240
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Thursday, October 19, 2006 - 11:34 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

It is truly a sad situation Daniel.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Juan
New member
Username: Callmejuan

Post Number: 16
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 2:30 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Estimado Orlando, lamentablemente tu querida Cuba ha soportado muchos años sin plena libertad. Batista primero y luego Castro. Al fallecer éste último no espero un inmediato vuelco a la plena práctica democrática. Los pueblos perfeccionan la libertad con el curso de los años. Supongo que tomará varias generaciones para recuperar una Cuba plenamente libre y democrática.
Espero lo mejor para tu patria y creo que el éxito depende de ir haciendo los cambios progresivamente. Saludos.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Orlando Martinez
New member
Username: Bracsim

Post Number: 5
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 4:29 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I Know Juan, I know, but the truth is that even if Castro dies is going to take a lot of years to clean up the island and change the way people think and act, is going to be hard work, is not easy cleaning up almost 50 years of hate and errors and I`m not planing to be there anyway . Juan aunque no te conosco quiero que sepas que nunca fue mi intencion molestarte ni llevarte la contraria en tus ideas, solo darte a conocer la otra cara de la moneda, la que muchos no conocen. Un gran saludo de Orlando, si deceas escribirme mas directo te explico mas sobre Cuba si decearas saber algo mas. bracsim1@hotmail.com Saludos.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Daniel
New member
Username: Daniel

Post Number: 21
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 7:13 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Juan,
Tu ingles es un maravilloso. Puedes explicarte mas vale que yo, en tu idioma. Pero quisiera decirte que estoy completamente de acuerdo contigo en recuerdos de Cuba y los EEUU. Tenemos problemas en todo el pais especialmente en la confianzia del gobierno. Nos dicen (gobierno y las noticias) siempre que Iraq fue un gran distribuidor de armas de destruccion massiva, Saddam era gran amigo de Al-Qaida, demas ad nauseam. Pero donde estan? Y Irak ahora es el Mekka de los terroristas mundiales quienes quieren solamente matar soldados estadouneses. A donde esta Osama Bin Laden el gran terrorista? Le habemos olvidado, no? Y ahora desde de que Irak esta lleno de la democratica y podemos regresar a la busca de Osama, no? Que podemos pensar? Antes de este mensaje os dije que es "CATCH-22." Es jerga que significa una situacion que alguien no puede ganar. No podemos quedarnos en Irak y no podemos salir....(Catch-22 por Joseph Heller) Es lastima y deseo mejor para mi querido pais. Bueno, espero que pueda explicarme bastante bien en tu idioma hermoso. Tenemos muchas opiniones y puntos de vistas (seguro como Argentina). Y espero que no te ofendas.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Daniel
New member
Username: Daniel

Post Number: 22
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 7:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Orlando,
No podemos caminar en tus zapatos. Tienes razon en todo que nos dijiste. Todas las noticias por aqui ponen cuba en un plano muy alto pero la verdad es feo, no? Mi abuela, tambien cubana desde Santiago de Cuba, siempre me dijo "bicho malo nunca muere." No es necesario creer en Fox, CNN, Danny Glover o demas. Podemos hacer nuestras opiniones mismas, pero porfa, debe ser un poquito de respeto a otros que no las tienen. Me gustaria pensar que tenemos mucha compasion a otros y especialmente a nuestros hermanos cubanos durante este tiempo dificil. Ojalamos que todo pasara bien. Pero dime, piensas que debemos continuar el embargo o llenar cuba con el dolar de turistas? No se nada...pero el embargo se duro hace 47 anyos y los bichos no mueren. Debemos tratar otra manera? Por favor demuestrame la solucion. Tambien, espero que no te ofendo.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Juan
New member
Username: Callmejuan

Post Number: 17
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 8:56 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Orlando, gracias por tus palabras; en ningún momento me han ofendido tus opiniones y las respeto. Mi exagerada reacción fue debido a que no percibo, en este momento, que la contracara de Fidel sea USA. En mi opinión la actual administración en US está poniendo en mayor riesgo a sus ciudadanos que sus enemigos. La libertad no es algo que US pueda exportar es algo que todo el pueblo Cubano desee tener y preservar. Ojalá lo logren.

Daniel, I understand the expression Catch-22 (even I saw the film). Sometimes the worst decision was don´t make nothing.
Te has explicado perfectamente en español, muchas gracias.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Orlando Martinez
New member
Username: Bracsim

Post Number: 6
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 4:23 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hola Juan, te entiendo y quiero que sepas yo tampoco apoyo esa guerra, a veces es necesaria la guerra para alcanzar la paz pero en este caso creo que la guerra fue un error, ya es tarde pues no se como se arreglara ese problema. Cambiando tema alguien me puede decir como es la zona de Mar del Tuyu, esa zona es mala o buena? Any body knows anything about Mar del Tuyu in argentina, is life to expensive there, are the people nice there ?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Juan
New member
Username: Callmejuan

Post Number: 18
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 9:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Orlando encontre el siguiente link en español con información sobre Mar del Tuyú, espero te sea útil.
http://www.portaldelacosta.com.ar/mardeltuyu.htm

En lo personal nada te puedo aportar pues hace más de 20 años que no lo visito.

Un abrazo
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Orlando Martinez
New member
Username: Bracsim

Post Number: 7
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2006 - 7:50 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Juan, I`ll take a look.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Arial
Junior Member
Username: Arial

Post Number: 48
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 8:50 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

How do I miss these interesting discussions?? I thought I signed up for EVERYTHING but I just landed here.

I am probably older than anyone on this forum (judging from your posts) and can write what I saw about Cuba. It has long been a puzzle in my thinking. I am going to tell you just what I saw, without comment.

I grew up in South Florida. My grandmother had close friends in Cuba who visited our home often--GOOD people. I was in Cuba at about age 7. I ate coconut ice cream out of the coconut half-shell! (Wonder if they still do that.) I put my finger in the space where the huge diamond had been stolen out of the capitol building. People in whose homes we stayed had chickens tied by the leg to the back step and laid an egg every day, right in Havana!

Many Cubans thought Batista was a terrible leader and supported Castro, thinking he was going to take from the rich and give it to them! And so a lesson to us. Often when we turn against a leader (as with Bush) we think ANYONE would be better. Not necessarily so! (oops, sorry, I was going to make no comment! )

Back to Cuba.

Our friends in Cuba feared that Cuba would fall to Communism. They were right. We watched the firing squads, shown at that time on our TV, shooting Cubans. I was horrified. The influx of Cubans to Miami was well under way. The first who came were the quality Cubans! Many were patriots. They came only to regroup and return to take the country back.

I married. My husband was a scuba diver. His friend owned a furniture store and two warehouses. My husband was offered a huge sum to teach Cubans scuba diving. They planned, among other things, demolition activity in the harbor.

The mystery began for me. A boat navigating the Miami River was loaded with arms destined for the Cuban freedom fighters. It was intercepted by the US Coast Guard and the arms confiscated. My husband's friend, sympathtic with the Cuban cause, allowed the Cubans to use one of his warehouses to store arms. It was raided and the arms were confiscated by the US gov also. And so went the story.

Then came the Bay of Pigs. The US finally agreed to help. The Cuban militia was to land at the Bay of Pigs and the US military was to provide air support for the invasion. If you heard anything else in your history book DO NOT BELIEVE IT. I have been amazed at what I read in the history books today! This fact alone has caused me to question a LOT of history. If we want the truth we must read many sources. I try to even read things written by those diametrically opposed to my own beliefs for that reason! And I WELCOME opposing opinion here so long as it is supported by facts and not just opinion! It is only when we gather as much information as possible from every viewpoint that we have a chance of getting to truth.

The Cubans went in to the Bay to Pigs and President Kennedy withdraw the air support. Or at least someone did. Cubans in Miami were outraged. I was outraged. We all waited for a word of explanation from the President. It did not come. We were glued to radio and TV for days, waiting for an explanation. Cubans rioted in Miami. But still no word from Washington.

I sometimes wonder if Kennedy was not in control at all. I know it's hard to think that might have been the case, but many things were never explained.

As far as I know, with that the back of the Cuban resistance was broken and Castro was entrenched.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Orlando Martinez
New member
Username: Bracsim

Post Number: 14
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 7:41 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Arial, your story is 100% true, but many people dont know and dont want to know anything about it, what you just said is the truth. At least when Batista was President we had free radio, Tv and independent or privated newspapers, cubans never left the island in rafts when Batista was president or dictador, cuban economy was growing fast, we had rich and poors like every other country, look at Cuba today, Castro controls everything even the internet is ilegal for cubans, the whole country is poor, freedon is of course ilegal, if you mention the word (Human rights) you end up in prision, 47 years without eleccions, the whole island is destroy and other countries want to follow Castro`s steps, look at Venezuela is going in the same direccion, I hope Argentina wont follow.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Orlando Martinez
New member
Username: Bracsim

Post Number: 15
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 7:51 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Daniel yo estoy de acuerdo en levantar el embargo pero con condiciones, liberar los presos politicos, permitir la libertad de expresion y difusion incluyendo esto el derecho a libre prensa, radio y television y que toda la ayuda que de Estados Unidos este supervisada para estar seguro que llega al pueblo. Te garantizo que Fidel nunca aceptara que le levanten el embrago, lleva 47 años culpando a EEUU de la pobresa de Cuba por el supuesto embargo, con embargo o sin embargo todo seguira igual, Cuba compra pollo, maiz, arroz y demas a EEUU actualmente y paga por esas compras CASH (al contado) si actualmente Cuba compra esos productos porque el pueblo no los ve, donde estan esos pollos, el arroz, el maiz, nadie sabe o mejor dicho estan en los hoteles donde se prohibe la entrada a los cubanos, esos productos son para los turistas, para enriqueser al dictador, con embargo o sin embargo nada cambiara.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Daniel
New member
Username: Daniel

Post Number: 23
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 14, 2007 - 11:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Orlando,
Muy bien. Estoy también de acuerdo con las condiciones, son razonables. ¿Pero piensas que todo cambiará cuando el bicho se morirá? Espero que sí, pero razón y la historia del hermano me digan no. Mucho tiempo pasará y con paciencia en nuestro parte, las cosas cambiarán en cuba. La gente quiere el cambio (en todo el mundo, no?) Mi primo cubano me dijo que las cosas empeoran, es la sociedad en particular. Es lástima pero son las raíces de cambios, no?
Espero lo mejor para cuba y todo el mundo. No somos santos en los EEUU, pero somos una gente con corazones muy grandes.
Te agradezco y me gusta mucho leer tus opiniones y las opiniones de este foro.
Saludos cordiales,
Dan
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

florencia
Member
Username: Flopy26

Post Number: 58
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 1:03 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

daniel,
es muy interesante lo que escribiste y es un tema muy complejo cuba ya esta asi desde hace muchos años si el bicho muere no se si cambiaran igual las cosas,ojala que si,pero de todos modos creo que se cubren muchas cosas,como muchas veces pasa que las mujeres buscan casarse para poder salir de la situacion en la que viven,con respecto a estados unidos estoy de acuerdo,yo he conocido muchos americanos y me parecieron personas muy agradables.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Orlando Martinez
New member
Username: Bracsim

Post Number: 16
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 7:31 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yo tenia esperanzas pero despues que vi lo que esta pasando en Cuba las perdi todas, Raul se quedara en el poder despues que desaparesca Fidel por completo, estilo Korea pasandose el mando de familia en familia, la sociedad cubana esta perdida aunque me de pena decirlo es la verdad, nadie quiere trabajar, nadie tiene ilusones, los semblantes estan tristes, no es facil limpiar 47 años de dolor, creo que ya Cuba se perdio para siempre, ya mis planes del regreso terminaron. Saludos y es un placer debatir con usted. Saludos.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Tom
Advanced Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 324
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 8:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Arial
Your Statement
"Then came the Bay of Pigs. The US finally agreed to help. The Cuban militia was to land at the Bay of Pigs and the US military was to provide air support for the invasion. If you heard anything else in your history book DO NOT BELIEVE IT. I have been amazed at what I read in the history books today!"

I think I am probably older than you. And I did not read about the Bay of Pigs invasion in a history book.

Never at anytime did the US military say they would support the Cuban freedom fighters in any way. Had the military known that an invasion force was sailing from a US port they more than likely would have alerted the Coast Guard to stop it if not sending Navy ships to do it.

True the CIA backed the effort but the CIA is not the military. President Kennedy did not want to go to war with the Soviet Union which was at the time Castro's protector.

Castro had not done anything to the US that would justify us going to war against him.

When the Soviet Union sent nuclear missles to Cuba, the US threatened to take action but the missles were withdrawn and war was averted.

Under the freedom of information act you can get declassified military documents from that time period. You will find none that said the US military would support the invasion. It could have done so if the President had told them to. He did not. He is the Commander in Chief of the US armed forces and they will do what he tells them to. Just like Bush's order to invade Iraq, a mistake from the beginning that was made even worse by the bungling bureaucy that was sent to the country to run it after the invasion.

Anyone who would say that the US is safer because of the Iraq invasion is not dealing with reality.

I do not see Argentina becoming a dictatorship again ever. There are too many freedoms there for the people to allow such a travesty to happen.

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Bold text Italics Underline Create a hyperlink Insert a clipart image



Argentina Directory
(Local resources)

Username: Posting Information:
This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Password:
Options: Enable HTML code in message
Action:

Argentina Forum | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | FORUM GUIDELINES/HELP | Directory Submissions | Travel Directory | Argentina Vacation Administration