Post Number: 1
|Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 9:24 am: |
my names Jason, ive been following this forum for some time now and thought it was time to start asking a few of my own questions. First of all i would like to thank all of you for the wealth of information that you have already provided me. this is hands down the best argentina travel forum i have ever seen!! thanks Roberto and all of you that keep this going!
Ok now a few of my many questions. Im going down to Argentina for the first time in July and im going to spend the majority of my time in bariloche this time around. this question is in response to Arials remarks throughout the threads, she had mentioned that it is hard for an foreigner to purchase a property in bariloch unless your a resident or from spain. What are the differences between buying in say mendoza, BA, or anywhere else compared to Bariloche. (arial if you could tell me about your experience it would be muchly appreciated, and anyone else that has information on this)
secondly, i was wondering if there is public transportation or any other kind that goes out to the surrounding areas of Bariloche. (cabin districts) or if renting a car is the best to keep mobile in and around these areas?
my primary reason to go down there in july is mainly this trip is for the ski hills and the amazing city i have read soooo much about, but also i was thinking of taking a few extra weeks in july to travel around argentina, is there anything in particular you can recommend this time of year? i should also mention that i will be revisiting argentina from december 08 till march of 09, so i can catch the best of argentina in the summer as well.
i could go on but ill try to put them in the right threads for you Roberto!! jaja
thanks in advance,
Post Number: 141
|Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 10:27 am: |
Luke, I have posted about my experience in Bariloche and details are elsewhere. Residency does not qualify you--citizenship does. I heard that you can buy a lot and build--with permission--and permission is being given. There is a problem because all real estate has to close within 45 (I think it is) days and it will take months to get permission--unless something has changed. Owners do not want to tie up real estate while you wait for permission.
If you want to write me off forum about already posted details I will be happy to repeat for you though it may be a few days.
Post Number: 1504
|Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 10:07 am: |
I don't know enough of this subject. Perhaps WTM -expert in the Mendoza area- may read this and comment. Or Mike in Buenos Aires. They both may have answers for you. If they do not comment you might be able to pm them (I think it will not bother them), as well as Arial.
Bariloche does have public transportation. I found the following links that have detailed information on bus schedules as well as itineraries:
Colonia Suiza older route
Your second best alternative (or first) would be to contact the Civic center that offers all this information to the Public:
Ph: 011-54-2944-425687 or 011-54-2944-426416
If you stay during August you can always make it to Peninsula Valdes and take a whale watching trip. The southern right whale is a protected specie!
Post Number: 142
|Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 12:04 pm: |
Dear Jason, I apologize for not responding about the buses and I join Roberto in saying welcome . . . glad you joined the group!
Bariloche has very good bus service. I would not own a car, personally, in Bariloche. One thing about a car, it is illegal to park almost anywhere in Bariloche (giggle-giggle--well maybe that's a tiny stretch, but not much!)
I didn't respond before because I didn't know where you want to go and if there are buses that go there. Around town and to outlying areas bus service is wonderful. Probably the longest you would have to wait is 20 minutes. There are buses to the ski lifts and to Llau-Llau. My guess is you could get just about anywhere you want to go by bus BUT . . .
there may be places that I don't know about that do not have service. This isn't very complete information but I hope it will help.
Post Number: 2
|Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 1:14 pm: |
THANKS ALOT! your both a huge help throughout this forum!
Post Number: 139
|Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 7:43 pm: |
Hi Jason, unless there is a separate step AND unique real estate laws in Bariloche (property must close in 45 days??) I am pretty sure we are talking about ZONA FRONTERA.
ZONA FRONTERA is a clearly established invisible line that runs roughly parallel to the border of Argentina with each one of the countries it touches.
The line is on file with Argentina Border Patrol (Gendarmeria) and a rough indication of this line is marked in green in the map attached to this post:
I repeat, the green line I just drew myself just now, free style, and by no means is any kind of official indication of this wavy and wandering line that it really is.
But it does exist, and you can get details of this line in any particular area from an escribano publico that knows what he/she is doing, gendarmeria, and other professionals that understand the topic and the details, such as myself in Mendoza. You can get it for free from gendarmeria if you persist.
The purpose of the line is for the gendarmeria to have easy access to records and history of individuals that buy property in this zone. This is for national defense purposes, and a buyer in this zone should know that if war or skirmishes breakout along the border, that gendarmeria has the right to come on to your property and setup a defense post. There may even be a small battle on your property if the Chileans or Paraguayans persist with troops to invade Argentina, which may ruin your garlic or vineyard crops, or your cool mountain-view bungalow that you built, in any given year.
The reason gendarmeria (http://www.gendarmeria.gov.ar) wants to know criminal or non-criminal history of buyers and "the reason" why the land is being bought, is to be preventive, being satisfied they are not allocating land to convicted drug smuggles, terrorists, etc.
When you buy land in areas west of Mendoza City, and In most parts of Uco Valley, you receive a "provisional title" while you wait for the government to issue you permanent title after they have reviewed the pile of paperwork your Escribano Publico submits to them.
From 2002 to 2006, this approval process went from 3 months to over 12 months as the surge of foreign buyers came in after the 2001 devaluation and bought land in Zona Frontera. I also know from "interviewing" key government people in the SSI national headquarters in Buenos Aires, that the manpower to review and approve this paperwork has been dramatically streamlined in 2005 after the bottleneck just plugged up completely due to manpower vs. volume of paperwork. The current wait time is down to 6 month or less, and is dropping steadily. I saw first hand and also met the "the one guy" who used to approve all this paperwork. They now have a special floor dedicated to the cause with over 10 people reviewing the paperwork of each foreign buyer.
Bottom line is, in Mendoza you will still wait a minimum of 3 months but most likely 6 still , on any permanent title of property you, as a foreigner, buy in ZONA FRONTERA.
This has not stopped countless foreign buyers from setting up shop and home in ZONA FRONTERA in Mendoza, but in all fairness it has discourged other countless buyers because they don't feel comfy about the waiting period.
By the way, I have a direct connection with one of the top reviewers of this paperwork in SSI in BA, and anytime a waiting period passes 4 months, I offer the service to a "waiting title" person, of followng up to make sure things are on track or to give it the extra nudge to pop it out of the pipeline and back to Mendoza.
One should know that ZONA FRONTERA does not include Mendoza City, the suburbs, Chacras de Coria, Vistalba, Maipu, Lujan, Agrelo, etc..nor San Rafael.
Arial, you have me curious about Bariloche. In the past when I hear these Bariloche stories, which are very similar to stories in Mendoza, I just chalked it up to what must be frustrating for some foreigners who feel they must have permanent title now instead of 6 months.
So, is there some kind of extra layer or process you are mentioning about, in Bariloche? I have never heard of property “having” to close in 45 days in Argentina, and also know that you do not have to be a citizen to buy in ZONA FRONTERA.
A big problem in Mendoza is that so many different versions of the rules of ZONA FRONTERA float around..it's the old thing of "asking 10 people and getting 10 different answers”. But the rules on file with this long time law are very clear and straightforward.
So what's up with Bariloche? Thanks
Post Number: 7
|Posted on Saturday, February 09, 2008 - 5:55 pm: |
I would like to know what is the best way to travel from Buenos Aires to Patagonia? By bus, train, or plane? Can anybody recommend how to book this trip? I want to go glacier hiking. What are the best months to go? Is it possible to make it a short trip of 1 to 2 days?
Also, I am thinking about retiring in Uraguay from the US. Can anybody help me to get started? I would be looking for a house away from the city perhaps within 10 to 20 miles away.
Post Number: 144
|Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 3:14 pm: |
Mendoza, thank you for all that info on the border, etc. But there is no "waiting period" and then approval for foreigners in Bariloche. You will NOT be approved, period. There was a time when everyone was automatically approved, but that changed.
I think it was almost six months before our disapproval came back and we had to sell. There is another way that a lawyer told me about and then got angry that we mentioned it to anyone else so I wont mention it here. But it does not allow holding in your own name, to give you an idea. But we were flat out denied and we were the first, others came after. Some people we knew walked away from deposits and moved on to Chile.
I was told it was called the zona seguridad (security zone). And that it was a hold over from a war with Chile. Thanks for the information about where to get the info. I wish they would inform the rest of the Argentina government because we were not even able to find that out.
I moved on and STILL have not bought another place. I hope to do that on this trip. It was a horrible experience and I thought this must be what it feels like to have your home foreclosed. Hated to leave but we North Americans are so used to dotting every i and crossing every t that I just couldn´t take a route that might be questionable. If that doesn´t answr your questions, write me off'forum, okay?
Post Number: 145
|Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 3:19 pm: |
Cheryl about whether to travel by bus or plane to Patagonia from Buenos Aires, it depends on your time frame and why you are here. My time frame is usually generous and I want to see what is between towns so I like the bus. Bariloche has a lovely airport and flying would be convenient if you want to just get from here to there and the excitement and fun of the city is what you like.
I know nothing about the train. If that is a good option I hope someone will tell us about it.
Post Number: 145
|Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 7:33 pm: |
I respect that you had first hand experience with your attempt at buying in Bariloche, but somethign is amiss here as there are many foreigners that sucesfully buy property in Bariiloche, and have it put in their own name even (as opposed to to other tricks like using a trust, a corporation, or direclty an Argentine's name).
On one hand I shouldn't really care nor lose too much time on this, as I focus on Mendoza, but on the other hand, many of my prospects and clients want to buy something here in Mendoza and Bariloche, and while I hear about ZONA FRONTERA problem stories in Mendoza and Bariloche, I can always quash the Mendoza mis-information and usually say the case is the same in Bariloche. But yur post has me now very keen to peg the general situation in Bariloche so I don't end up contributing to the mis-info about Bariloche. I have emailed some contacts who live there, and this week plan to communicate with SSI in BA, and Gendarmaia in Bariloiche to get their feedback.
As you suggested I will communicte to you off forum in the meantime, but at least I wish to post my conclusions here later.
As far as "informing the rest of the Argentine government", isn't it crazy? The countless government employees that have not even been breifed properly on their department rules is staggering.
Post Number: 147
|Posted on Sunday, February 10, 2008 - 7:50 pm: |
What you are saying was true until about 2 years ago. Many foreigners had bought there and had been approved with no problem. As far as I know we were the first denied and after us, many. The real estate woman I mentioned (not the one involved with the apartment) told me she would not encourage any non'citizen try to buy in Bariloche now. She encouraged me not to leave Bariloche but to wait because in Argentina things can change in two years. If it has changed back I have not heard it.
I hope I am not repeating. We have discussed this so many times on the forum. I do think you can get a lot approved and build on it, but there is a problem with the wait for approval. The reason it took so long for our "approval" is because a new bureaucrat took office and was planning to institute an old law that no non-citizen could own land there (except citizens of Spain) and so it was held up. But when it came through, all applications that were in at that time were also disapproved.
If you find out anything concrete to the contrary, I am sure many would be interested to know. Apts BA has posted here before that that is why he didn´t buy in Bariloche also--he could not buy in his own name and refused to buy any other way.
Living in Patagonia
Post Number: 138
|Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2009 - 12:40 pm: |
We just signed our title! Our to our escribano, approval is now automatic in the zona de seguridad up to 5000 meters and for non commercial use.