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Gayle
Member
Username: Flaka

Post Number: 63
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 12:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Can someone answer this question? If my elderly parent lives alone in Argentina and I live in the U.S.is this considered "abandonment"? And if so, what does that mean?

Hopefully, someone can answer this question. Many thanks.
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1864
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 3:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Gayle, can you add a few more details if possible? My mother lives in Argentina and I am here and she is getting older. We speak every day, why would physical separation be considered abandonment? There has to be additional factors.
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Gayle
Member
Username: Flaka

Post Number: 64
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Sunday, June 14, 2009 - 10:48 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Roberto, I received this response on the forum. Your question is my question, is physical separation considered abandonment? And if so, does that mean we would have to uproot our families and move to Argentina to care for the elder parent? Would there be penalties at the time of distribution of property upon death?

I will pose this question to my lawyer in Argentina. If you have additional info please let me know and I will do likewise if I get a response from my legal representative in Argentina.


Cap. VI - Abandono de personas

Art.106.- El que pusiere en peligro la vida o la salud de otro, sea colocándolo en situación de desamparo, sea abandonando a su suerte a una persona incapaz de valerse y a la que deba mantener o cuidar o a la que el mismo autor haya incapacitado, será reprimido con prisión de seis meses a tres años.
La pena será de reclusión o prisión de tres a seis años, si a consecuencia del abandono resultare un grave daño en el cuerpo o en la salud de la víctima.
Si ocurriere la muerte, la pena será de tres a diez años de reclusión o prisión.
(texto conforme a la ley 21338, ratificado por la ley 23077).

Art.107.- El maximun y el minimum de las penas establecidas en el artículo precedente, serán aumentados en un tercio cuando el delito fuera cometido por los padres contra sus hijos y por éstos contra aquéllos o por el cónyuge. Serán disminuidos a la mitad, cuando el abandono fuere de un menor de tres días aun no inscripto en el Registro Civil para salvar el honor propio o de la esposa, madre, hija o hermana.
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1866
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, June 15, 2009 - 12:34 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Well, I shouldn't be giving my opinion here as I am not a lawyer but if you can read spanish the key phrase here seems to be "incapaz de valerse" ("por si misma", I may add). I would equate abandonment with that specific condition: the inability or incapacity of self-support or self-sustainment at different levels. Could even be the imposibility of walking to the bathroom by oneself. Finally, I would also imagine that a trial must take place to prove the condition of abandonment before any consequences arise from this act.

But that is the interpretation of a lay person.

Let us know when you hear from your legal representative.
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Gayle
Member
Username: Flaka

Post Number: 65
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 12:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Roberto,

I have heard from my legal representative in Argentina and this is what I was told:

This section of the Criminal Code deals with "abandonment" of a person. To "abandon" somebody, you must have a PRE-EXISTING obligation of taking care of him/her.
A pre-existing obligation to take care of your mother would exist if, for instance, you had the legal custody of your mother, or probably in case you lived with her at the time she is "in need" of help. But no judge will force you to move to Argentina because your mother needs you.

In any case, this section of the Criminal Code applies more to cases like the following:
-- If you hit somebody with your car, and run away from the accident without helping the victim.
-- If you walk by a person who is having a seizure and do not stop to give him/her a hand.
-- If you are a medical doctor and do not offer help to somebody in a medical emergency.
-- A mountain guide who leaves a guided tourist up in the mountain in the middle of a storm.
Again, for an "abandonment" to take place, there has to be a prior obligation to take care of somebody. This obligation could exist on account of a prior contract (e.g. a mountain guide), a legal imposition (e.g. a medical doctor), or a prior act or occurrence (e.g. car accident).
Making arrangements for your mother to be placed in a home (paid out of her funds), or to have a full-time nurse (idem), would be enough to comply with this obligation.
Hope this is of help.
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1869
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thank you, Gayle.
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Gayle
Member
Username: Flaka

Post Number: 66
Registered: 7-2007
Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 5:46 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Roberto,

Da nada
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Carmen
Junior Member
Username: Carmen

Post Number: 26
Registered: 9-2005
Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 10:21 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Abandono de persona

Could apply to the case of an elder mother who is no longer able to live alone because she has some sort of impediment such as Alzheirmer, premature dementia or senile dementia, or any other physical or mental condition that leaves her unable to live by herself (since she is not able to take good care of herself), therefore in danger.

In this cases, the family members should take care of her by provinding the means to grant her a place to live where she recieves all the medical atention and supervision she needs such as a Geriatric or similar. Failing to do so is considered "abandono de persona".

For example, neighbours of said person could claim to the Admin of the Consortium to request the start of a formal complaint because they consider the person is dangerous to herself and to others (could cause a fire or a flood in the building she lives, things like that).

Also a judge or city Authority (if she lives in Buenos Aires City there is a Program called "Proteger" (Protect) could contact the family members urging them to take care of their family member.
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Gloria Melgar Estevez
Intermediate Member
Username: Glorita

Post Number: 105
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 3:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello Carmen, Roberto. Carmen is your mother currently in some way disabled, and/or by any means not able to care for hersself? If yes, you say that she has a property?...home where she resides?....if so,have you considered selling it and putting her in a facility that could care for her with the funds that would become available with such sale? Next question, even if she is "NOT YET" unable to care for herself, the time does come when she won't be able to. And such said time could be short or long. You should perhaps have that discussion with her now, as to what can be done when the time arises and what her wishes are. So many people just don't talk this out and then find themselves in panic mode when it does happen.

Also have you ever thought of bringing her here to the states?...is that a possibility? Considering the cost of care of the elderly here in the states, answer most probably would be NO....of course I don't know your monetary situation so maybe you could have her here.

My mom and I have had such talks in depths and considering that she is 72 and well has some medical issues, she has it in her living trust as to what her desires are. And because of how expensive care is here in the states, her decision is to reside in Argentina in her latter years. I don't know if I will be able to go and be with her on an ongoing basis as I have my life built here in the states. But who knows,the world takes so many turns.

Anyways, good luck!

**Roberto and off topic question...have you any idea where Mike and Sean are?....I miss reading their updates/opinions on the economy.
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1925
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 12, 2009 - 8:20 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

OFF TOPIC
*******************************************
Hi Gloria.

Mike is traveling and busy with his family, which is getting bigger and bigger... I heard that from him recently. Sean, Soulskier and Mark (LostintheAndes) were here posting not too long ago, perhaps as back as June/July. I am also thinking that some of the "stock market" activity we used to have here may have migrated to another forum where themes could be more focused. Unless something pissed them off, they will be back. Some members like to take a break every now and then... But I too miss their take on Argentina! I wonder where Arial is and if she finally made it back down there.

*******************************************

(Message edited by admin on September 14, 2009)
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Arial
Advanced Member
Username: Arial

Post Number: 335
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 8:39 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi you wonderful people!

I'm still around, Roberto! I fell in love with the long time posters on this forum so guess I'll be around, at least off and on, as long as the rest of you are. Beginning in March (or before) I must live 9 out of every 12 months in Argentina in order to qualify for my passport. It's been a long and eventful process that lumbers forward--albeit very slowly!

I don't see Apts any more and wonder if he WAS liquidating as someone posted. Boy he protested that but . . . WHERE of WHERE is he? (Hehehehe if he's around he'll probably fire a post back on that one!)

I last posted that the US was being led down the path to fascism. As usual, I got plenty of polite argument about that! I wonder if there are still hangers-on who will still argue. Sometimes it is not fun to be right! For me this is one of those times! I love Argentina, but I also love the U.S. and our heritage and history, which appears to be forgotten at the moment.

I exited everything but precious metals stocks as the last downturn began and have not re-entered. I am watching it every day but there is one wild card that makes good analysis difficult, in my opinion. And that is what the FED and the government might decide to do. Now that they have taken it on themselves to try to manipulate the markets, one can only guess. So I prefer to watch. In fact, I've been around Argentina so much that I think I'm morphing into an Argentine! Buying real assets that you can see and control just might be the best defense.

One analyst that I follow says that the U.S. is not going down the path of Weimar, Germany, but the path of Argentina. So Argentines have been where USofA-uns have never trod. At least not in our lifetime. So it might be a very good idea to listen to the voice of experience! Our adopted paisanos just might hold the key.
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Carmen
Junior Member
Username: Carmen

Post Number: 27
Registered: 9-2005
Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 9:57 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Gloria,

My mother -thanks God- is fine.

I was answering a post to Gayle.
I went through this experience living in a building where an old lady was abandoned by their sons. Very sad.
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1928
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, September 14, 2009 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thank you for posting, Arial! Good to read your thoughts again. And one more apology to Gayle for hijacking her thread.

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