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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1570
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 10:58 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Let's discuss this important topic here, as per WTM suggestion.
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Gloria Melgar Estevez
Member
Username: Glorita

Post Number: 64
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Monday, March 03, 2008 - 9:05 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Mike,

Well, I say that I don't think it will change in Argentina in my life time, but unlike alot of Argentines I still hold "hope". And one of the biggest reasons I have hope is becaue of people like all of you..."foreigners"...I think that your entrapreneurial spirits, talents, business backgrounds perhaps is a start for a different Argentina.

I actually have two kids, Mike. My daughter is 10 and attends public school. During the second grade she was tested for the gifted program and has been in the gifted class since(she's now a fourth grader). In order for her to get the education she is getting in a "public school" here, I would have to put her in a private school over there. And as you say, a good private school over there is as expensive as one over here. So, as you can imagine this too is a reason why I couldn't/wouldn't relocate.

I mention before that some day, God willing, to do as my mother does, which is to live six months here and six months over there. My mother has even offered me many times that she would fund any business I would be willing to try to start up in Argentina. But at this point in my life, I couldn't consider it as I feel strongly that children need parental supervision and guidance in their early years.

Mike, from what I gather, you are a very talented young guy which if you made it in Argentina, you can make it anywhere!
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Apartmentsba.com
Advanced Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 415
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 5:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Gloria,

I agree that any long-term long-lasting fundamental change in Argentina will be furthered along by foreigners that bring their entrepreneurial spirit, hard work and dedication and ethics to the working environment here. As much as I love Argentina it's a brutal place to do business in and very difficult to make money in.

Yes, I understand having kids and wanting them to be involved in a strong school is an advantage in the USA vs. Argentina. I think that will always be the case. Here the private schools can be as much as u$s 20,000 per year. The thing is at least in the USA you are making much higher incomes (for the most part) vs. low wages in Argentina so you have to look at your income/expenses.

I think living part time in the USA and part-time in Argentina could be ideal. In fact, I might do that in the future. The USA is such a great place and a great place to raise children.

Thanks Gloria for the kind words. Yes, after my experiences here in Argentina and growing a few businesses here I'm convinced I could go anywhere in the world, start from scratch and make a successful business. It's a zoo here and so ANTI-business here. I often wonder where I will end up. I get job offers all the time from Europe and the USA as well as Asia now. I still think my heart is in the USA and Argentina and don't think that will change.

Looks like this has gone off topic. I'm still waiting for our friend Patrizio to come back and post and answer some of the answers to my questions.

Cheers all.
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WTMendoza.com
Intermediate Member
Username: Welcometomendoza

Post Number: 164
Registered: 7-2007


Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 6:59 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Mike and Gloria (sitting in a tree?):-)(smiley)

I love the USA myself, having been raised there from the age of 6 months, and also love Argentina, since I first lived in BA for a year in 1982 , after the Malvina battle and before the military exited stage left.

My Argentine wife and I have two USA born and raised boys, who are currently 10 and 14, and these boys have lived in Argentina now for close to 3 years.

There cannot be more than small handful of private schools that charge 20K usd in Agrentina, One of them is Lincoln high school in the northen burbs of BA which is desgined exclusivley for American kids and wealthy executive budgets.

The vast majority of private schools here are very resaonbly priced, in hard dollar comparisons to USA schools, and in fact overall significantly cheaper than private schools in the USA. If you have any info to the contrary I welcome and even challenge you to post it. These are the facts. I would hate for somebody to get the wrong notion from your posts.

There is no questions that each city in Argemntina has only a handul of decent PUBLIC schools..the same school system that used to be world renowned just 25 years ago, but has eroded into marginal quality ever since they chnaged some structures back. They are trying to chnage the structures back now but it will take time to improve, academically, on the public school scene.

Also, although the economy is more stable in the USA, it is my strong opinion that the kid culture is accelearting down a slippery path in the USA, much faster than it is in Argentina and the rest of the world. We as parents, and our American parent friends and even Argentine parent friends who live in the USA will acknowledge this. Sure there are pockets of glowing warmth here and there, but as far as I can see there is absolutley no compaarison to the kid culture here in Argentina where respect for fellow kids and parents is vastly superior to the USA.

Gloria you acknowledged in a prior post that it makes you the most conforthble to encourage your kids to invite their friends over to your house so you can "mother hen" them and make sure they stay out of trouble in Florida. That is a great decision and committment from you and you will benefit greatly from it in my opinion.

Okay, way off topic now, my apologies but I feel I must address the generizliations that I feel are wrong on this off-topic topic. cheers
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Apartmentsba.com
Advanced Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 417
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 7:15 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Sorry for the Off Topic post again..

Mendoza,

I agree there are probably some good schools here for very low prices and sorry If I gave the impression that all good schools here were expensive. However, if I had kids here I'd send them to the Lincoln Center most likely. I agree with you the vast majority of the schools are reasonably priced but I still believe the schools in the USA are better.

I agree with you that the "kid culture" in the USA has really gone downhill but I think much of it is managed from the house and parents are doing a worse job then before.

Now I agree that today is much different than when we were all younger. When I was in school (both in private schools and public) no one was bringing guns to school and killing their fellow classmates. I think there are positives and negatives of each society but I believe in the USA the "thinking environment" is simply better and it's the reason why a large percentage of the brightest and most successful people in a number of different fields/professions are from the USA. It's not a coincidence. There is a reason for that. I don't see these types of things coming out of Argentina. (not to say they don't have brilliant minds here).

I think you have to look at these patterns. There is something in the entire USA educational system that I truly believe instills that drive to succeed.
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Gloria Melgar Estevez
Member
Username: Glorita

Post Number: 65
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 7:51 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I'm also sorry for continueing to keep us off topic, but I have to give a response.

I must be fair here and say that I have not researched any schools in Argentina to really be able to give a realistic comparison. But I'm 100% sure that the public school system is no where near to what public schools are here. If you live in a good district, your child is afforded a very good education here in the states. Granted, there are kids that fall through the cracks still despite the fact that we now have "no child left behind" and much more testing(here in Florida children must pass the FCAT to be promoted starting in the third grade). Here is the key factor, in my opinion, as to a child's achievement in school, whether private/public, and be it here or in Argentina...parental involvement. Hands down, if a parent is on top of a child and is willing to go the extra mile with their child, that child is more likely to succeed. Okay, I think we need to put this topic to rest or perhaps Roberto can open a thread so we can exchange information as this topic may be important for others that may be considering moving to Argentina with school age children.
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WTMendoza.com
Intermediate Member
Username: Welcometomendoza

Post Number: 165
Registered: 7-2007


Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 7:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Roberto, would it possible to do a little thread surgery to create an appropiate thread for these posts or move them to an already exisiting thread. This is a very important topic, and it is valuable to have alternating opinions on this very complex issue - thank you!

Mike,
Why would you send them to Lincoln? I'm just curious.

There is no question that the usual suspect universities in the USA are top notch, although Europe has some excellent ones too. I keep hearing for years about Univeristy BA being world clss but I don't know first hand. I wonder if they ask their students to photocopy books,

I think the capitalistic culture of the USA makes it easy for any body who is motivated, to succeed. You know the old story about how many taxi drivers in BA have degrees in this and that , and how knwoledgable they are - they will talk circles around passengers on various academic topics. But they are trapped in a country where opportunity has had a big foot on it's neck for too long. I often wonder also, about if things will ever chnage in my lifetime, but I do know for sure that I don't question why people here who can afford to do it, send their kids to college abroad if they can..it may not be so much for supposed "ehanced" education, but for the relationships and opportuniies they will find..to enable them to suceed more, as opposed to the limiting landscape of Argentina.

I agree with you - a good mixture is the best for kids, and the ability to be able to move around if one can, from USA to Argentina, to wherever is desired. Expats kids kick butt over non expat kids...in the long run...

The guns in schools topic scares the heck out of me. I cringe every day when I dial up the news. cheers
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Benco
Junior Member
Username: Benco

Post Number: 44
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 9:07 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Seems as if Patrizio is not coming back, so we can chat some more... Some more off-topic views:

Comparing education in Argentina and the US is a bit unfair, Argentina is doing well within South America, but it is not a first world country. There is no way the UBA could compete internationally in experimental sciences, they are lacking the funds. And WTMendoza, yes, they ask to photocopy books :-)

In the USA there are no doubt some of the best universities in the world, but e.g. in natural sciences you will find few Americans amongst students and professors. I agree on the good "thinking environment" and its appeal to foreigners. However my view on high-school education in the US is not so positive, compared to other first world nations.

About the popular theme "If you can make it in Argentina, you can make it anywhere", I would not completely agree. Well, I understand what you mean, that it is tough out here and that one learns a lot. And back in the US or Europe everything would be so much easier (although there are other challenges, e.g. very professional competitors). Maybe doing business in India and China is in some ways similar to Argentina.

But take a realistic look at the world and you find many places where doing business is almost impossible, where personal safety and property rights are not guaranteed by the state. In many countries businessmen are forced to make arrangements with criminal organizations and you can not succeed without compromizing your ethical integrity. With all its shortcomings, Argentina is a peaceful democratic state where you do not fear for your life at night, and the state has not completely turned into a mafia. How do you do business in African conflict zones? Nobody can. And heck, I wouldnīt even want to go to Paraguay.
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1572
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2008 - 11:22 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

>> And WTMendoza, yes, they ask to photocopy books :-)

My cousin and I actually set up a shop for this purpose at the time students had to take a "preparation" course to be elegible for College exams (to be accepted), back in the 80's. Our shop was right across the street of the students building and it was called... "El Fotocopiazo". It sounds funny but that is what happens when there is not enough money to go around.

WTM has a very precise view, specially in regards to the continuous deterioration of education. My sister recently relocated to Alpharetta, GA and although my nephew was attending a private school in BA she said there was no comparison with the (free) public school he now attends in her neighborhood. One computer per student! Which brings me back to Gloria's comment. If you are able to live in an expensive neighborhood in the US, public schools tend to be better than the private counterparts of Buenos Aires >> taxes!

(Message edited by admin on March 04, 2008)
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Apartmentsba.com
Advanced Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 418
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 6:42 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Roberto,

I also know many friends from Argentina that also went to private schools here and some of them moved to the USA at various stages of their lives. Some in grade school, some in middle school, some in high school, some in University. The one thing they ALL have in common is they say that the schools in the USA where they moved to were much better than their schools in Argentina. Some of them attended private schools in the USA but most of them were going to free public schools in good areas.

Now, I also have clients here that moved to Buenos Aires and their kids attended private schools back home and they enrolled them at the Lincoln Center here and they complain about how expensive it is but they said it is as good as their schools back in the USA.

What Roberto mentioned about his nephew I hear over and over from many people here. For all the problems the USA has, I still think the educational system there in good areas at both public and private schools is superior to Argentina and I'm confident it always will be.
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Arial
Intermediate Member
Username: Arial

Post Number: 165
Registered: 10-2006


Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

This is about education for our kids in Argentina or anywhere else! Listening to you guys about schools in both places, Iīd say we are in a bad way whichever place we are.

I lived with my brother and his family in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida, during a six months period when I was recovering from serious illness. I was alarmed by the low educational requirements made on my niece and nephew although my niece was classified as gifted. And their high school was an award school for outstanding performance. I graduated high school in 1959 (oops, telling secrets here) and their public school education was nowhere near what it was where I went to public school.

To further support my thesis, in the late 70s I discovered my third-grade son was not reading well. Went to school and found out he was doing first grade reading in third grade. He was getting Aīs on his report cards so the only reason I questioned it was because his reading certainly was not up to my standards. This can happen in public school and you may never know unless you are paying attention. I could give you more information about this but I will let that go. The so-called "gifted" classes today are just for kids that do the work at the level kids were once REQUIRED to do or be failed. I figured that out by looking at my nieceīs work in the "gifted" classes.

Back to my son. I requested a meeting with their reading expert, his teacher and the principal. I sat at the conference table with them all and said "how can we get him reading on grade level?" Answer: The only way we can do that is to hold him back. (Translation: It is not our fault he can`t read to grade level, he has a learning problem.)

Please notice one person in the conference was a person trained to deal with reading problems with kids! All three were trained, degreed professionals at teaching children. I have no such training.

I knew what they were telling me was not true. So I took him right to the public library after school and asked the librarian for a list of books that were popular with third grade boys. I made him read to me for fifteen minutes every day after school and praised his progress. Then I read to him for 15 minutes. The third book, Charlotteīs Web, in particular, caught his interest. He pleaded with me one day to keep reading. I said no, not today. He got on the floor on his little tummy with the book and struggled through it himself. That was the day in his life that he first read on his own.

At the end of the semester his teacher sent me a note of congratulation because he was, in fact, reading on grade level! Of course he was! It didnīt take a whole year to do it either. I decided if they couldnīt do it I would do it myself and I did NOT accept their evaluation of his ability to learn. He didnīt have a learning problem, they had a problem with their entire teaching philosophy and it was hurting my son. Among other things they wanted his self-image to be good so they gave him Aīs for sub standard effort! I believe self-image is supposed to be earned. It is supposed to come from doing a good job and doing the right thing!

That was the last year either of my children went to school at all until their freshman year of college. We fought the school systemīs threats successfully and home schooled when home schoolers were persecuted pioneers. Both kids maintained excellent averages through college, made the Deanīs List every semester and graduated with honors. Both are very good readers. And in our program we didnīt have to work at school for 5 or 6 hours a day either. One bonus is that we had none of the difficult teen problems, drugs, rebellion, teen pregnancy, etc., that so many (most) of our friends had. I missed that experience entirely.

I hope this post will encourage even one parent. All I can say is whether in the US or Argentina, you have to look out for your childīs education yourself. Donīt think the experts know more than you do because they probably don`t. Trust yourself and be responsible for your own child. Not saying a person canīt send their child to a school. I personally would not use public school for a variety of reasons, both social and academic. I will spare you all of those reasons. I did serve on one of the political executive committees in my county and in that capacity our Superintendent of Schools told me what they are up against as far as complying with federal requirements and not getting their federal allotments if they donīt. I didnīt like what I heard and I am still wondering how the federal government got involved in our state schools. Schools under the Constitution are supposed to be state- not federally-controlled. But there we go again with the Constitution.

Our children are so valuable and parents need to trust and not doubt themselves, and take responsibility for their own kidsīeducation. They are our kids, not the schoolīs and we are the ones that are supposed to make the decisions. Or so I think anyway.
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Gloria Melgar Estevez
Member
Username: Glorita

Post Number: 70
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 2:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Arial,

I have to give you credit for not giving up on your child, and for taking up the challenging work of home schooling especially during a time when home schooling was not acceptable. Today, home schooling is a growing trend,yet still, many look down upon it. I have researched it myself, and have seen how much more advanced many(but not all) of these kids are. I'm however, not convinced that it is a good thing for the child socially. I thought about doing it myself with my daughter, but both she and my husband were apposed to it because is very much into school....having friends, being part of group projects, etc. My experience with my daughter and her being in a gifted class has been different as that of your niece. My being in close contact with the school(as I volunteer alot), I can see that the gifted program is different and more advanced. By the way, "gifted" is not the same as high achieving...in fact, many gifted kids are often mistaken as having Attention Deficit Disorder when in actuality they are bored with regular class work and are often daydreaming..but let me not get off topic. I'm not saying the US has the best educational model in the world, but I am saying that a "GOOD" education is afforded at the public level to "MOST" kids. If I could sum up your last post to two words, it would be "PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT".....and I'm 100% in agreement. But to keep this thread on topic, I will end by saying that if we strictly look at public schooling between the US and Argentina, it is my opinion that the US is the better choice.
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Arial
Intermediate Member
Username: Arial

Post Number: 166
Registered: 10-2006


Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2008 - 3:41 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The gifted classes are better than the non-gifted. I do understand the system. My niece was getting a fair education. In fact she had done about a year of college while in high school. But she is responsible and a "go-getter." My nephew, not gifted (and making little effort)was not.

Our children had many friends. Not only did we have neighbors their age, we were active in two churches, had a wide circle of friends who also had children and entertained entire families a lot, were involved in activities like swimming lessons and tae kwondo. There are so many possibilities. My daughter operated a janitor service as a teen-ager and my son did odd jobs for neighbors, later he "graduated" to commercial fishing and operated a small retail business as a teen-ager, dealing daily with customers. Later those businesses paid for much of their college. All are "social" activities. I know this is a huge break from the "traditional" and probably not many have even thought of the possibilities. But it IS a possibility.

I am not promoting this way to do things. It is just that social opportunities are reasons often given to parents. That isnīt a reason unless the child is going to do nothing but sit home in isolation if he or she is not involved in school. In which case, I would agree with you.

To keep on subject, all of this applies anywhere parents are bringing up children. I would say that what I am talking about is a "private" school. But it sounds like it would not fit for your family. But it is a great option. And you are right. Most children (but not all) test two years ahead of public school children academically.

I think that the bottom line for any parent to answer is what is best for MY child.
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WTMendoza.com
Intermediate Member
Username: Welcometomendoza

Post Number: 167
Registered: 7-2007


Posted on Friday, March 07, 2008 - 1:03 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Good points Arial and others- so much comes from the parents and how they keep on top of their kids education. It can be the best school in the world but if there is not support from home, there are stronger chances of wasting money, time, and most importantly, your kid's education.

It is also true that living in certain expensive or otherwise privileged areas in the USA gives you access to better schools. But even so, study after study done over the year’s claims that elementary and high school education in general has declined in quality compared to "other countries". Or maybe it's that other countries are getting better. I know our kids are getting a first class education where they go here in Mendoza - I see it through the homework they bring home, and gradually see it in their knowledge base as it deepens.

AptsBA I disagree with you using the term "Always" when it comes to comparing quality of schools in USA to Argentina...hey you should know better than most to never say never. I do think you are on to something though about the "thinking environments" but what is it do you specifically mean to say?

On the other hand, it is too general to compare USA schools to Argentina schools. USA is a very diversified country and so is Argentina. Each neighborhood in each town/suburb of each province/state of both countries has differences in their local schools. There are good and bad although it is safe to say that overall Public schools on Argentina kinda suck right now ecuase of the process that they are trying to turn around....

In fact, so much, that I think that the title of this thread should be "Education in Argentina" y listo:=>
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Erin Aguirre
New member
Username: Ebbie

Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2008
Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2008 - 1:21 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Everyone, I am new to this blog and really appreciate how much info there is available here. We are a long way off from moving to BA, but I am currently trying to test the waters, seeing how realistic my vision is. I will be telecommuting, so I will make US$, but my husband (who is Colombian) will be looking for work down there.

We will be visiting BA in December for 3 days, then off to Bariloche for a few days. In the next couple of years we will be trying to visit often to connect with people and scope out the area. The biggest questions that I am hoping to have specifically answered are:

1. Can someone please list some of the private schools that are not $20k a year and are "good schools"?
2. Are there any companies that offer international mortgage loans to US citizens? If so who?
3. I can see that the apartment prices are quoted ALOT higher for expats, which is disheartening. My husbands native language is spanish and I am hoping we will have the opportuniy to talk with owners and work out long term rentals is this realistic?
4. We have 2 kids, what are the best areas to raise kids in?
5. Do most apts allow pets?

Okay, I'll stop there. I could probably ask a thousand more. Your input is greatly appreciated. Erin
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WTMendoza.com
Intermediate Member
Username: Welcometomendoza

Post Number: 171
Registered: 7-2007


Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 9:09 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Erin, Mendoza has at the very least 4 or 5 strong options for good private well-reputed bi-lingual schools that cost under 6kUSD a year and much lower - and my wife and I consider this area a great place to raise a family because of the outdoor activities, the mountains, the weather, and the "mini-BA" culture that Mendoza city offers ..but..in a very Mendoza style, which is essentially a mountain/foothills Argentine community. and if you don't like city life there are numerous options for suburban and country living within 30 minutes of Mendoza city, not to mention San Rafael. Pets are difficult to accomodate but very possible if you dig hard, and pricing is more reasonable than BA in general. Good luck!
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1579
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, March 09, 2008 - 11:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Erin, welcome! WTM gave you an overview of a western province which scores very high when it comes to raising children. As for Buenos Aires, here is my first-hand experience. I went to Washington School in Belgrano during my childhood. It is not comparable to the mentioned "Lincoln School" in the outskirts of the city, as the latter focuses exclusively in foreign children. However, WS is a great bi-lingual school which happens to be much more economical. I contacted them recently to explore the possibility of sending my english-speaking daughter if that tells you anything. If I remember correctly, it was about half the price. For elementary school, I graduated from Colegio Nacional Buenos Aires -first built by the Jesuits- which was FREE. A remarkable institution -considered the best elementary school in the country- if you or ayone wants to study its history. So you can have both a good education and a cheap one.

Your husband's colombian accent will draw the attention of argentines and him too will fall in the category "foreigner". It is difficult to overcome the price differential. Your best course of action is to check Sat/Sundays classifieds where prices are posted. So no confussion. Or have someone local help you with your searching.

In Buenos Aires, pets are common and you will likely find it easy to accomodate this need. As for raising children, well... BA is just like any other major metro area with all the good and the bad. Mendoza will have a completely different effect on your kids.
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Erin Aguirre
New member
Username: Ebbie

Post Number: 3
Registered: 3-2008
Posted on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 9:20 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thank you both for the great information! It gives me hope that this is possible. Fortunately I have a lot of time to plan this out and will hopefully get to make several visits before the actual move. It is very scary and very exciting at the same time! The thought of not being in US anymore and experiencing life outside of the bubble is intriging and terrifying.
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movingtoargentina.typepad.com
Intermediate Member
Username: Sapphos

Post Number: 119
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 11:09 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I just want to weigh in on this discussion a bit :-) I have a friend who teaches at Lincoln - she has given me some insights into the problems kids there face not just as expats kids which bring their own sets of challenges good and bad, but because many of the kids there are coming from embassy and very wealthy families. They have a lot of issues with alcohol and drug abuse as a result - enough that new teachers are actually prepped on how to deal with it.

On the issue of education in US vs Argentina, I think it's spot on that it's up to the parent to be involved. There are a lot of terrible schools in the US as there are also good ones, but I rather think that our focus on standarized testing such as the FCAT and no child left behind is bogus. I graduated from a Florida University, I saw the results of kids coming out of FCAT schools when I would assist my grad professor in grading their papers and tests - it was sad. The majority of students in my undergrad program which was science based, were not from the U.S. Sending kids to school a month ahead of time, shortening holidays, and spending inordinate amounts of time "prepping" for things like the FCAT do not produce kids who are inspired to learn, of course there will always be those who get through it, but so many suffer.

I am with Arial on homeschooling and even more alternative forms of schooling but that's another subject. However, I will say that there are often better opportunities for socialization with homeschooling than the school system affords. I've talked to lots of expats this year who are "non-traditional" expats meaning they haven't moved to BA with a company or embassy, and a good portion of them are actually homeschooling their kids. While it's not really legal to homeschool if you are Argentine, when you're an expat you're able to do as you like.

Also, I have a friend who has their kids at the Steiner/Waldorf school in Martinez. Her kids were in one in California. She has been very happy with how her kids have been learning but that is a unique program.

We are friends with the director of the French Lycee in Belgrano, it's got plenty of problems according to him, mainly because (according to him), the Argentine standard is not at the same level as the French which is quite strict on learning.

I'm rambling a bit, something about a 14 month old daughter and lack of sleep rather contributes to this, but just wanted to add some other thoughts.

Laura
Ebook Moving to and Living in Buenos Aires, Argentina
http://movingtoargentina.typepad.com
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movingtoargentina.typepad.com
Intermediate Member
Username: Sapphos

Post Number: 120
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Monday, March 10, 2008 - 11:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Erin,

Take your time preparing your move, do lots of research, talk to as many people as possible so you get varied responses and know that your own experience could be quite different from any of them. But even with several trips under your belt, it will still be completely different actually living in Argentina like any other place that you visit fall in love with and move to. But the more you can go and do preparations, the easier it will be. We made three trips to BA for about 2 weeks each time to prepare and it definitely made a huge difference.

I agree with Roberto, even though your husband speaks Spanish, you will still stick out as a foreigner. Portenos (as BsAS residents are known) can pick out someone from Mendoza or Cordoba or anywhere else and you will likely get the "special" price. also, you need to be aware of something called "guarantias" which can trip you up if you're looking for long term rentals. Essentially many property owners will be looking for a local to guaranty their property in the event you don't pay your rent, amage the place, or become squatters at the end of your lease. However, with so many foreigners coming to Argentina, owners have become more flexible, you just have to find them, and you may have to do a lot of the footwork just to find them as the majority of agents aren't going to bother.

Pets for the most part will be fine unless you end up with a short term rental and then it might be tricky depending upon the size, type and number of pets. If you can find a house to rent then you will have less problems.

I've been to Mendoza, great laid back area, completely different from BA. We chose to stay in BA because I was pregnant and wanted to stay with my doctor and the hospital. We definitely much prefer the suburbs over "Capital" because we have the city when we want it but the green of the burbs. But you'll have to see what schools suit you best.

Also on the schools, some schools will refuse you unless you are legally in Argentina with the proper papers. So be prepared to look around or really try to get around things a bit.

No matter what you need to arm yourself with lots of humor and patience and get ready for a great adventure.

Don't know if this helped much but hope so. Check out WTMendozas site and my blog for more info as well as other threads here in the forum.

Good luck :-)

Laura
Ebook Moving to and Living in Buenos Aires, Argentina
http://movingtoargentina.typepad.com
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Erin Aguirre
New member
Username: Ebbie

Post Number: 4
Registered: 3-2008
Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 10:29 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yes, Thank you Laura. Your insight helps tremendously. We will absolutely make several trips and try to stay as long as possible. I have faith that if we are on the track things will start to come together. That is as long as we do the leg work!

As far as schools are concerned, I will research more and check out the areas. We have a Waldorf school in my city and it is great! We condsidered it for our kids but it is currently out of our price range. In researching Waldorf in BA, it seems like it is geared towards "troubled youth". I'm not sure if I am reading it right, but I believe that what it was saying. Regardless, I imagine there are lots of options once we actually live in Argentina.

From what you all describe it sounds like the suburbs are more our style. We live in Atlanta, GA now but chose an area right outside of the center of the city. It has been great and the excitment of city life is only a few minutes away.

We'll see how everything pans out. We appreciate everyones input so much! Best regards, Erin
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Arial
Intermediate Member
Username: Arial

Post Number: 168
Registered: 10-2006


Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 1:05 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

One more comment on the subject of education.

As an editor I once ran a small business services company including editing. A lot of my editing was college papers (I did not write them though I had offers of $$ to do that). I have seen theses for master's degrees that were so poorly organized that it was difficult to even follow or make sense of them, with such glaring errors that I thought the student needed to do a complete rewrite or the degree was lost. One of the universities was Florida Institute of Technology (FIT) supposedly a school with such a great reputation that foreign countries send students there.

Some of the students decided to turn the papers in as they were and to my astonishment, I don't know of a single one that failed. When it first happened I was shocked, later in awe. I realized how much our educational system has slipped. When I was in HIGH SCHOOL we would not have passed if we turned in a final paper like that. I am not talking about "gifted" kids either. I am talking about anybody.

But today that standard of work can not only make it through high school but it can get passed with a master's degree. I am not making this up. I am also sure that there are still good college instructors and good universities out there. But I wonder if the average person from the lower standard schools of today even recognizes when they are not good, since it now seems to be the norm. Kids can do a lot better than that but something has to be required of them. I am not talking about being mean or oppressive to a child either. I am only talking about requiring a higher standard.

Laura of MovingtoArgentina makes a good point. As an expat you have an advantage. You can do what you want without the state interfering. With my own children I had the advantage of a mentor who was an educational innovator. She advised me to follow the kids' interest as my curriculum. I was skeptical. After all I was used to the structured public schools I graduated from. But she told me to imagine that I had to get through two books of equal size and reading level, one about a subject of great interest to me, the other something in which I had no interest. She asked which I thought I would learn and retain the most from. The answer was obvious. She said Your children are exactly the same and they will get a better education if you do it this way. She showed me how to write up the curriculum for state consumption. If my daughter wanted to sew a dress (she became a fantastic seamstress, even made her wedding dress) we called it home economics. I always allowed my son to assist with repair of machinery, install drywall, fix plumbing. A guy needs to know things like that. So we would suspend school for those things but we reported the "class" as "(believe it or not the web site balked and said I cant use that word.)" And so on. I was fortunate enough to be in Michigan where I could do that. Parents I know in Florida have such restrictive requirements that most of them can barely even make it through the year. It is a terrible system! Of course they want to make it as difficult as possible on parents because they lose several thousand in revenues from the Federal government for each child that is home schooled. When the school superintendent fought me in Michigan over my home schooling he told me frankly that was the reason. At least he was honest. His issue was not my children's welfare but the money.

But an expat would have the same benefit that I had.

We also got rid of the TV during those years. That helped too but I know some parents, even, couldn't stand to do that!

Thankfully a great education is available to us all. It is there for the taking. We just need to use our time pursuing our interests.

I hope some of this will help to inspire at least one parent out there for the benefit of at least one child. Again, home schooling is not for everyone, as is obvious. But somehow every kid should discover and develop a love of learning and an appetite for knowledge. Parents can do a lot in that direction, in any case. In fact, I think that probably it comes down TO the parent. But it is necessary to catch the vision of what is possible before anything can be achieved. Arial
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Arial
Intermediate Member
Username: Arial

Post Number: 169
Registered: 10-2006


Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 1:23 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Here is the intro of an article I just got in my mailbox. I am sure you can research the studies mentioned if you want. Note that one writer touches on what I wrote in my previous post. Low expectations. I have a hard time believing that Argentina school standards are even lower. But anything is possible. Arial

Embarrassingly Stupid Americans


The title of this article, that an embarrassingly high number of Americans believe that the sun revolves around the Earth, is only one point argued by the Washington Post’s Susan Jacoby, in her attempt to prove that Americans are in serious intellectual trouble, facing a virulent mixture of anti-intellectualism, anti-rationalism and low expectations.

What else is signaling that Americans are becoming increasingly dumbed-down as a society?

Reading -- of books, newspapers and magazines -- is on the decline. A 2007 study even found that 80 percent of American families did not buy or read a book in 2006.

Attention spans are declining; Jacoby suggests this is due to television and videos. For instance, between 1968 and 1988, the average sound bite on the news for a presidential candidate dropped from 42.3 seconds to 9.8 seconds. By 2000, according to a Harvard study, the daily candidate bite was down to just 7.8 seconds.

General knowledge is eroding. This is evidenced not only by the fact that one in five U.S. adults believe the sun revolves around the Earth, but also many others.

Yet, it’s not bad enough that knowledge is quickly declining in the United States. On top of that, there is an arrogance about this lack of knowledge, almost as if a good portion of the population is saying, “We know we’re ignorant, but we don’t care!”

Consider, for instance, that a 2006 survey by National Geographic-Roper found that nearly half of young Americans did not think it was necessary to know the location of other countries in which important news was being made. And another one-third felt it was “not at all important” to know a foreign language. (I stopped here rather than put reams of information on the forum--but this is just another observation of what I observed editing papers of college students.
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movingtoargentina.typepad.com
Intermediate Member
Username: Sapphos

Post Number: 121
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 8:39 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Erin, the Waldorf school is not for troubled youth, but far from it. My friend's kids are happy there and have really integrated into the school and its social structure. It is a small school and the main language is Spanish. My friend said that she was paying around 11,000 a year in California per child but in Argentina she pays around 500 pesos each month per child. It's definitely an option if you're interested in Waldorf schooling. The one I am speaking of is in Martinez by the way.

Arial, what you speak of sounds remarkably like "unschooling" which is something we're considering. I would love to talk to you more off the board.

Laura
Ebook Moving to and Living in Buenos Aires, Argentina
http://movingtoargentina.typepad.com
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norma abila
New member
Username: Norma

Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2008
Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 3:07 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

My husband has been transfered to Neuquen. He would like myself and our 15 year old son to move down there. Are there any international schools in Neuquen?
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1627
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 17, 2008 - 8:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello Norma, this is not easy to answer... I think you should look into 'colegios privados bilingues'. I did myself and couldn't find much. It may sound silly but this teacher may have some answers for you... http://neuquen.olx.com.ar/profesora-y-maestrando-e n-historia-en-neuquen-iid-7782679
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Michelle Alison
New member
Username: Michellealison

Post Number: 4
Registered: 7-2008
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 1:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Not all private schools cost like the American school in Buenos Aires. For instance, my son goes to the only International school in Mar del Plata with a British based curriculum. The highest fees at the school are just over 1,100 pesos per month (less than US$400) and the standard at the school is extremely high. They don't have electronic whiteboards yet, but the children are very polite, very sporty, very knowledgeable and widely travelled.

We only pay 10 months a year plus one extra payment for admin.

There are many other private schools here which charge around US$100 to US$200 - certainly a lot cheaper than the UK...........

Regards

Michelle
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1724
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 12:36 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thank you, Michelle. Feel free to post the name/address/contact (or a link) for the School for all of us.
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Michelle Alison
New member
Username: Michellealison

Post Number: 5
Registered: 7-2008
Posted on Wednesday, July 30, 2008 - 12:57 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hereīs the link for the International school in MDP as per Roberto's request.

Trinity College - www.trinity.esc.edu.ar

Michelle

(Message edited by admin on July 30, 2008)
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Keith Mangan
New member
Username: Kreation

Post Number: 22
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 12:28 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello all,
Intresting points from everyone involved.,many thanks.
I have a query regarding schools aswell,does anyone know if there is a web-site listing address of public and private schools in capital and the suburbs.I am hoping to find one relating to Belgrano as far as Beccar, San Isidro.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Keith

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