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Robert W
New member
Username: Rwalker206

Post Number: 1
Registered: 2-2007
Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 7:51 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello all. New to the forums. Recently starting researching Argentina and came across this site/forum. Seems to be the motherload!

I am thinking about getting out of the US, and have been looking at South America, mainly Brazil and now Argentina. I was wondering if people might have some advice on Argentine cities/towns I might do further research on. I would like to live in a place that is not big city, which probably leaves out BA (although i don't know if there are some non-city-type areas just not in the city center...), possibly a smaller city, populations in the tens or hundreds of thousands, but not millions. I would love to find a place where there might be a creative/artistic community (I am a musician and writer in my mid-thirties). I'd like to find a place that has culture (music, cafes, theater, stuff like that) and where i could get internet access at home. and lastly, a place where i might be able to buy a modest house (two bedroom, say) with a little land for say up to US$ 100,000.

Does any city/town spring to mind for those of you who know a lot about the country? I am truly getting tired of living in the US, and would like to live somewhere more...real, if you know what i mean. Oh, also, I love hiking and camping, being active outdoors, which is another reason Argentina caught my eye.

Thanks, and also thanks for the great advice i have read so far just browsing.

-Robert
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1007
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 9:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Robert, welcome!

All what you listed can definitely be found but in different degrees. For varied, bohemian and great cultural life BAs is -unfortunately- at the top of the list. However, you will find a decent amount of artistic communities in many smaller cities/ towns. Theaters, pubs, cafes, restaurants are everywhere as hanging out is our favorite passtime. And beyond the capital city, usd $100,000 will buy you a more than a modest 2 bedrooms for sure.

There are members of this forum that are very familiar with places like Bahia Blanca and southern areas of Buenos Aires. Others are familiar with Mendoza, which will probably be a strong choice when it comes to outdoors. However, my advice is that you explore Rosario as I somehow feel you will find more of the bohemian/laid back type of life you are after. Rosario, I believe, will be more "cosmopolitan" than other smaller areas where foreigners may find more of a challenge to integrate.

There are several neighborhoods beyond the city limits in BA that may qualify for your search. However, being so close to the capital they also inherit some of the attributes you are not comfortable with.

Some expats who post here may have a different vision. Let's wait and see who posts...
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Jos
New member
Username: Jos

Post Number: 16
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Friday, February 23, 2007 - 9:22 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Roberto and Co,

I just returned today from my fabulous two weeks in Mendoza. I absolutely loved it.

Thanks to all for the valuable information.

Cheers!
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Tom
Advanced Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 326
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Sunday, February 25, 2007 - 5:30 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello Robert W
and welcome
You might want to take a look at La Plata, capital city of Buenos Aires province. I have been told it is an excellent place to live. For $100,000 US you should be able to find a nice piece of land. It is about an hours drive east of the city of Buenos Aires on the coast.
I have partners in the real estate business who can help you and I am sure there are other people in this group who can help you also.
Bahia Blanca is a seaport city about 600 kilometers south of the city of Buenos Aires in the province of Buenos Aires.
I have traveled extensively in the Province and just a little in La Pampa. The rest of the country I know only from word of mouth or reading about it.
Everyone talks about Baraliche and Medoza etc, for me, I can find everything I want in Buenos Aires city and the province.
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Robert W
New member
Username: Rwalker206

Post Number: 2
Registered: 2-2007
Posted on Sunday, February 25, 2007 - 7:18 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

thanks, roberto, and tom, for replying. since i've never been to argentina, it's hard to zero in on places that i might want to visit, so your suggestions help. at this point, i am attracted to mendoza, not only because i like that it doesn't seem either too big or too small, and also i love the opportunities for outdoors activities.

i never learned spanish, but plan to start learning soon, before i plan a visit. i was wondering if anyone knew if it would be difficult for a white person from the US to move to a place like Mendoza, and perhaps eventually become a part of the community there. i am not a big fan of the typical american (which is one of the reasons i am looking to move out of the country), and understand people's aversion to such folk. but what about those of us who are not the typical, annoying american? are people in places like mendoza open to gringos from the US?

also, what is the real estate situation in mendoza? would it be harder or easier to buy a house than in, say, BA? would locals resent an american buying property in their city/town?
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Tom
Advanced Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 327
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 6:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

For some reason Argentines for the most part like "typical Americans" so you being atypical they may not like you. Just Kidding.

Over 97% of the people in Argentina are "white people" so that pretty much answers that.

I don't know about Mendoza but any place I went in Buenos Aires province I was treated very nicely except for the guy who tried to pick my pocket. I guess he treated me pretty nice also because he kept on running when I chased him down the street instead of stopping and beating the crap out of me for being so stupid.

The provinces do seem to have different laws about buying land so I can't help you with Mendoza. My experience in Buenos Aires province is it is not hard. You need a good realtor anywhere you decide to buy.
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Riyad Anabtawi
Intermediate Member
Username: Riyada

Post Number: 147
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, February 26, 2007 - 7:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Robert
No problem here in Mendoza with gringos. Infact when a Mendocino meets a gringo tourist, the tourist is very much surprised with the hospitality the Mendocino gives out. Except ofcourse the usual petty annoying thief here and there.
As for buying property here, it is (was) a piece of cake.. No problem with that either.
To buy a prop here you only need a CDI (a unique number) which you can get easily using 2 witnesses and a temporary address, your passport and your diniero ofcourse!
Riyad
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Arial
Member
Username: Arial

Post Number: 58
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 7:22 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello Robert W. and another warm welcome to you. I can't resist jumping into this one! Writing from my own experience, there are Argentines who wish North Americans would come for vacation and then go home! Also, I think you will see evidence of anti-US sentiment in Argentina, but it seems to be directed at our government, not us personally.

Having said this, I have never found any more gracious people anywhere than the Argentine people. Just watch how Roberto handles things on this forum and it will give you an idea!! Always gracious! I have never felt anything less than comfortable there. I think that so long as you have the right attitude, you will do just fine. Also, Tom touched on the fact that, if you are white, (and you try to fit in to their culture), you will not stand out. I think there are a lot of things about the culture to learn, however, In the US we try to make every minute count and tend to get right down to business. In Latin America, it is polite to take the time to greet people properly and is considered rude to do otherwise (Argentines correct me on this if you disagree). I think it makes us appear rude unless we make the switch. Also, in my area at least, you will never see an Argentine go out to the grocery store for a loaf of bread looking sloppy. I notice in Bariloche the difference in the environment on the street for that reason, compared to sitting in the parking lot outside Wal-Mart in my own country watching people coming and going. I think a sloppily dressed USofA-un will stand out in Argentina, even if he IS white! I think these are important things that are easily missed.

And so on. Much to learn about Argentina that may not be immediately obvious.

You can probably tell that I am very partial to Argentina and her people so take that into consideration . In any event, I hope this helps. Good luck! Arial
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Simon Fawkes
New member
Username: Expatba

Post Number: 11
Registered: 1-2007


Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 11:44 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tom - regarding "The provinces do seem to have different laws about buying land":

As a generalization foreigners can buy land and property without restriction in Argentina. However, there are a few localities where foreigners must first seek permission from the local authority, notably Bariloche and along the border zone with Chile (ostensibly for reasons of national security). If permission is granted a permit is issued - usually you will need to demonstrate that your proposed purchase will bring some kind of "benefit" to the local community.

Even without a permit it is may be possible to buy in these areas by using an Argetinean company to acquire the property or through a complex trust arrangement - however the property is not directly registered in your name and there are downsides to doing this - one of the main ones being capital gains tax on sale. For this and other reasons many people advise against doing this.

These restricted areas aside, the only real difference between provinces is the stamp duty (purchase tax) that may be levied. As well as being levied at a national level (although Capital Federal currently has an exemption for first properties below a certain value) stamp tax may also be levied at the local level, at typical rates between 1-4%. Not all municipalities have a local stamp tax, but a fair number do.

I hope this is helpful.

Simon Fawkes
Author, The Complete Guide To Real Estate Investment in Argentina, ISBN 1430303980, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1430303980
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Eric Baeder
New member
Username: Doggieboy

Post Number: 8
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 9:39 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

"i am not a big fan of the typical american (which is one of the reasons i am looking to move out of the country), and understand people's aversion to such folk. but what about those of us who are not the typical, annoying american? are people in places like mendoza open to gringos from the US?"

Robert W:
Actually I and most of my friends are typical Americans, I think they are great. Sorry you are having so many problems that you think moving to another continent will solve them. Maybe in your case, you should leave the baggage behind when you leave.

Eric
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Bill Howard
New member
Username: Veritas01

Post Number: 18
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 10:17 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I think Argentines are very friendly and by and large they like Americans. They are not particularly fond of our government at times but that is outside of your control and they realize that. That being said you will notice some underlying resentment from Argentines because of the economic situation. More and more Americans visit and live in Argentina largely because of the value of the US Dollar. Consequently your good fortune is at their expense or so some feel. Also many Argentines consider all Americans to be very well off financially so you may encounter issues where you are expected to pay more than locals and it is human nature to be jealous of people who are perceived to have a lot just by the accident of their birth. Several years ago Japanese tourists descended on the USA because the Yen was so strong. They were buying up things and traveling extensively and many Americans were angry they were able to do so. I say good for them.

Finally once you are there for a while you will make some friends and that is very important. Someome to tell you what you are doing right and wrong. Someone to help you navigage a different culture. I am married to an Argentine and she has family there so I am fortunate. While you dont want to hide your own personality and style you will likely want to tone down your American-ness. Also you Spanish speaking ability is critical to gaining accepatance. Trust me there are typical american and typical argentines that are idiots. No country has a monopoly on them.
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Kelly Hays
New member
Username: America

Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 12:32 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Robert W. - my 2 cents
what is a typical North American? I think the greatest thing about the US is that there is so much diversity, beauty, and culture - albeit ever-changing. Becoming an Expat is much more than just moving out of your birthland. If you are going to move out of the US, do so with a pride and respect for your home country and be humble and passionate for the country you will be moving to. I would hate to think of you living in Argentina and disrespecting the States. I am from the US and have lived in Argentina for many years and love it both here and the US. And I am proud to say I am a typical NORTH American.
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larry Rogers
Junior Member
Username: Larryr30

Post Number: 28
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 4:32 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Kelly,
Im glad that you said "it" and I didn't have too, but its been awhile since I've been on this forum and thought I would check in to see the latest vibe. Unfortunetly, I had to read the above scriptures......in all fun, it wasn't the first thing that I wanted to read.

Im young individual that packed up all my belonges (that is a backpack) and moved to Argentina, not knowing a sole. Its probably been one of the wildest rides; seeing that Im not traveling or acting as a canadian trying to enjoy South America I find very many lovely people of all nationality but still I wait to meet that Typical American.
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larry Rogers
Junior Member
Username: Larryr30

Post Number: 29
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 4:34 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Sorry Robert...I think that my comment belongs to the state of Eric.....I apologize!
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Tom
Advanced Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 328
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 4:34 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Good job Kelly and Eric
I doubt there is any such thing as the typical American.

There was a news report just after the bombings in Spain and other terrorist acts in Europe when the typical American stopped going to Europe in droves. Interviewing waiters and hotel personnel they said they missed the Americans. They said Americans were very good and generous tippers and that Europeans were not.

There are also a lot of Argentines living in the US. I know several. I believe even Roberto lives in the US.
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1016
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 5:20 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

My story is opposite to Larry's. Opposite latitude, that is. But the same in essence. Is that evasive typical american the one that shows up in official stats as having 2.3 kids driving 1.5 motor vehicles? Jokes aside, my first wife was (is) american and through her I discovered a new, non-judgmental way of seeing things. She literally changed my life. I will always be thankful for having met her and many more americans in my first years in the US (not Miami). They were nothing but good and opened to me.

We are all special. We just need to dig deeper...
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Robert W
New member
Username: Rwalker206

Post Number: 3
Registered: 2-2007
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 12:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

interesting. i suppose i should have qualified my statement about the typical american, though the last thing i am going to do is justify myself to someone like eric. what i meant by my whole comment was the type of american tourist-type who goes to a country, doesn't learn the language, expects people to cater to their tastes and wants simply because they might have some money, basically isn't interested in the true local culture and people, down on street level. there are cool people everywhere, and people who suck everywhere. duh. from my perspective, the selfish, myopic, bullying, and increasingly tyrannical system by which the US is run is not something to be proud of. that's my opinion, and i personally feel like the kind of person who doesn't best fit into a society such as this one. i'm not insulting everyone in the country (the typical american i spoke of before would think so and jump on it as such), there are a lot of great, less self-involved people who live here who get it too.

anyway, the last thing i want is for this to turn into some stupid debate, the very kind of talk-show, sound-bite nonsense that never actually gets anything said because such issues are just more complex than can be given due attention by quick, snide commments.

it's too bad this thread got taken over by a defensive/offensive attitude. to me, people are people, this artificial (and fairly new, mind you) distinction of which borders in which you are a "citizen" simply being the latest way those with the most money and power have chosen to organize "the masses."

bottom line, the government here seems to be heading in a pretty screwed up direction, even more than they always have been, and i love to see and experience other cultures and places, and think it might be time to try something new. and i would like to be somewhere where americans who have moved there are cool people who integrate themsevles into the culture there as opposed to trying to take north american attitudes and impose them where they go (anyone remember how this country was "founded" and "settled" in the first place?). i just was interested to hear whether places in argentina might be a place with such a feel and attitude. from what i have heard so far, it seems to be that way. i'm not a "proud american." nor am i "anti-american." i'm me. i love and would love to meet and get to know any and all cool and open and interesting people all over the world whatever their so-called "nationality."

let's put this to bed. if no one wants to comment on the point of my first post, then just kill the thread. this is a great forum, and most people here seem like really cool people. thanks to roberto and tom (and others, too) for all the great work and posts.
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1017
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

For feel and attitude don't leave out Brazil and their caipiroskas :-)
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Arial
Member
Username: Arial

Post Number: 59
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 8:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Robert W., I think quite a bit has been written that might help to answer some of your original questions. I posted a similar question to yours not long ago. If you look through the Moving to Argentina, Living in Argentina, Investments in Argentina (probably I am not getting the titles exact) Buying a Second Home in Argentina, and I think there is one on Mendoza specifically, you will find a lot of information. This site is just full of information and it's difficult to find the time to read it all, but I think it is worth reading those sections. Otherwise the same information gets posted again and again. Good luck! Arial
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Riyad Anabtawi
Intermediate Member
Username: Riyada

Post Number: 148
Registered: 12-2005


Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Here is my take..
I have lived in many countries and I think I know what Robert W is talking about.
Just one thing that pops up in my mind : The loudest speaking tourists are the americanos. And these are your typical. I think because they are the super power of the world, and are *&^%* proud of it.

But fear not Robert W .. Here the Argies are extremely hospitabile even to the most idiotic of gringos.
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larry Rogers
Junior Member
Username: Larryr30

Post Number: 30
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 9:34 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Riyad,
Thats funny that you have made those comments when we all put it to rest (the concept of a typical american), but since you like to make direct and incorrect statements about Americans....I will respond with one for *&%$#* holes like you! First, Im assuming that your not Argentinian, Second, if you actually paid attention while your where living in all the areas of the world...the loudest people seem to be The Israelies and then the Austrialians...but who cares! Third, though we might be a super power not all of us are proud of it and want to boast it to the world.

And for 2 cents more, I have been to alot of place also in the world and I don't think (while living hear in Argentina for the past 7 months)that I ever met more idiotic South Americans in one place, but I don't post comments explaining these things to others, because it's not the majority.....So *&^%$* off!
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1019
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 11:43 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Gals, pals... do we realize we are just dealing with stereotypes?

Here is a definition from webster:
"... a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion..."

Please let's not take oversimplified opinions too seriously. I'd also appreciate if we can give some more thought to the words we choose so that we can keep this *interesting* topic from going south.

I, for one, LMAO when I hear in Miami jokes about argentines and jokes about portenios when traveling inside Argentina. Heck, there are even whole tapes made out by colombians about the notoriously infamous argentine ego. So... Riyad, I invite you to post a typical brazilian joke about argentines and make us all laugh a bit!

(Message edited by admin on March 05, 2007)
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1020
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 11:58 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Larry, the "idiotic" entities you may have come across in your many trips only have 1 purpose: lightening our days. So we should be gracious they exist. What would the world be without jokes about "gallegos" or "jews" or "argentines"? Do you happen to know any funny stuff about your own peers?

In my last trip to Argentina someone read me a little (fiction) story about the ordeal islamic terrorists had to go through while trying to commit some evil action down there to finally abandon the project for a "better" country. It was a parody about our burocracy and how nothing really works. The ability to laugh at oneself is a healthy habit.
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larry Rogers
Junior Member
Username: Larryr30

Post Number: 32
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

True, True and True....Roberto,

Yes, they say that everything is bigger in Texas, but the only thing, in general, that is bigger are the Steers and egos...hahahaha.
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1021
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 12:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

hahaha... I heard that when living in Mississippi and my first thought was that texans have yet to meet one argentine. Ok, here is one that involves the 3 countries in conflict in this thread (US, Argentina and Brazil) and I warn some of the more sensitive members...

Scene: a woman, a man and our president Kirchner.

Act 1: guy drops his pants and showing his butt says "this is like the amazon jungle: impenetrable!"

Act 2: girl shows her full breasts and says "these are like the US: untouchables"

Act 3: finally, President shows his genitals and sadly says "this one is like Argentina. It never grows"
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Alan Sparks
New member
Username: Alanindr

Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2005
Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 12:57 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Being from Texas originally, to get rid of those from the northeast, and to save space, we give them an enema and send them back home in a shoebox.
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Sam W. Davis
New member
Username: Samwdavis

Post Number: 13
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Monday, March 05, 2007 - 2:16 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

larry_Rogers>>Yes, they say that everything is bigger in Texas, but the only thing, in general, that is bigger are the Steers and egos...hahahaha.

A few days ago, I would have added "and the jackrabbits". Then, while golfing Friday morning in Cordoba, I was walking up to a tree (one of the many times I was chasing my balls into the trees that morning), and this creature that looked like a Texas jackrabbit on hormones took off running from behind the tree. With that furry monster's retreat went my long-held "pride" over Texas jackrabbits.
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Tom
Advanced Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 331
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Tuesday, March 06, 2007 - 3:56 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Sam
I think what you saw was not a jackrabbit.
there is an animal in Argentina that is similiar but larger the name of which I do not remember.
I have gone rabbit hunting the rabbits were the same size as the one's in the states.
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Riyad Anabtawi
Intermediate Member
Username: Riyada

Post Number: 149
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 - 9:09 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I am out of here.
Suerte Roberto.
Would have been a great site, had it not been for more than a couple of &^%$# holes.
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1026
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 08, 2007 - 11:49 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I hate to see you go as you have been a great contributor. If in the future you come to a new understanding of the situation you are welcome here.

It is easy to make sense of the codes of communication among same culture and nationalities, therefore the risk of hurting someone unwillingly are almost nill. A lot more difficult is to understand sensitivities of people who grew up in a different place than our own. The things we innocently say could be interpreted harshly and noone is to blame except our lack of vision.
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Arial
Member
Username: Arial

Post Number: 61
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 10:16 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Roberto, you are definitely a class act. It is fun to watch how you handle things.

This entire exchange started because Robert W. wrote that he is not the "typical American." He was only trying to explain because he needed an answer to his question. I am surprised that people sophisticated enough to be on this forum do not know that Robert Ws comment shows that he realizes that the reputation of North Americans is not great in some parts of the world. My own son worked for an international company for eight years and he is forever correcting me--which I appreciate!--so that I will not come across like the (I dare not say it!!!!! I have already seen the attack on Robert W!!!)

Sadly this exchange is an example of the trend in my country--to shut people up who say anything that is not the concensus. Robert W has a right to his opinion, whether we agree with it or not. He also has a right to our respect and courtesy, even if we hold a different opinion! THAT is SUPPOSED to be the American way! If I were you, Roberto, I would delete any rude post before it sees the light of day! Plus I would delete all of these from the forum for the benefit of those who come after! They are embarrassing to me as a North American!

But in any event, Roberto, as always, good job! Arial
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1027
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, March 09, 2007 - 12:41 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I see your point Arial and am always thankful to you.

I have struggled with this issue to the point of not knowing what to do. I personally try to favor freedom of expression as much as possible, as deleting or editing posts is nothing but censoring. But sometimes it gets out of hand and it ruins the party. Where the line is, it's difficult to say as *average* self expression may also include a bit of the things we don't really like to hear/read.

My wish still is that this forum gathers the view of mostly *civilized* individuals that understand that online behaviour should closely resemble the offline world where one acts with restrain. But given the nature of the online world where people from all over the world are interacting at any given point a small cultural clash is inevitable. I don't like it. But the world (even more so the online world) is far from perfect.

Since this is a community -or behaves as such- I would do what the majority desires and if that is to delete any disrepectful comment so be it. Hopefully, Robert W will still find this thread of interest... after we unexpectedly went on a tangent.
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Arial
Member
Username: Arial

Post Number: 62
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 10:24 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Roberto, I cannot criticize you in any way. You are always gracious. I don´t know if I have a broad enough experience with Argentine people to judge but I find all of you (so far) extremely patient and courteous in the face of rudeness and you are no exception. Some of us desperately need to take our direction from examples like yours.

In my opinion, all opinions should be allowed, but those that make direct personal attacks, like calling names, derrogatory personal comments leveled at another post-er, and so on--are rude. I really appreciate open exchange of ideas with mutual respect. But in my opinion, if it sounds rude to YOU, it is rude! It is your forum and you can run it however you see fit. And yet I see your point and your goal and I agree with it.

It is sad that some of us from a country that claims to be so tolerant are, actually, so intolerant! But I dont know how you can have an open forum without having all kinds of individuals either! But who knows. Maybe you can teach some good manners!

I have left forums because of posts like we have seen on this one recently. None directed at me but I just don´t like to be around such attitudes. I have contacted Robert W personally and asked him to stay. I dont know if he was considering otherwise. I only know what my own reaction to stuff like this has been in the past. I do hope that he, and others that are just fed up with it, will stay. AND resist returning like-kind comments. You obviously try to run a decent forum and you have my support and admiration. Arial
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Eric Baeder
New member
Username: Doggieboy

Post Number: 9
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Monday, March 12, 2007 - 12:21 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

As American’s we are constantly bombarded day in and day out with all sorts negative comments about the US (some justified and most not). Generally, I choose to ignore them. However, there is a “special” class of Americans that go around trying to ingratiate themselves with foreigners by saying negative things about the US, when it is totally unwarranted. They always manage to find a willing audience. In some people’s eyes (not mine), they lend credibility to the negative comments made by foreigners. I find it decidedly unhelpful.
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Robert W
New member
Username: Rwalker206

Post Number: 4
Registered: 2-2007
Posted on Monday, March 12, 2007 - 7:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

arial - you are a class act. you, too, roberto. i had actually thought about just forgetting about this forum when i got a personal email from arial. again, thanks arial. the fact that there are people like you on this forum makes me want to still check it out every few days or so. as for eric - i choose to hold my tongue and simply shake my head. suffice it to say that he, and those with the kind of attitudes he has expressed here, simply don't get what i was talking about and why. arial did, one hundred percent, and that is much appreciated. i can only hope that there are others out there who are more thoughtful than simply reactionary and overly defensive.

as regards the issue of deleting posts, i agree with arial about recognizing rudeness and that it really has no place on a forum that is otherwise so mature. i'll put it this way, and this also helps one to contextualize all of my previous posts, i do not tolerate intolerance, close-mindedness, and unmindful bombast. does it make me "intolerant" to not tolerate intolerance? food for thought. where you come down on that issue will probably guide you in this matter, but i personally see no reason to encourage rudeness if nothing of any substance is being said. i totally understand your struggle with free speech issues on this matter, but it is also your forum (and this thread aside, a great one!), and you must think about whether "free speech" is worth allowing your forum to degenerate into immature, ignorant nonsense, which happens so often and often turns off the kind of thoughtful people who i am sure you would like to see be a part of this community. it sucks to see someone like riyad, who had so many posts, get sick of this forum over this exact issue. and i hate to say it, but i don't blame him.

an important lesson all mature people learn in life is that you can't please all of the people all of the time, and that not all "opinions" are equally valid, judged on their ignorance or mindfulness. think about it.

cheers,
robert
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Tom
Advanced Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 341
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Monday, March 12, 2007 - 8:56 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hola
the problem too many people have in free speech arguements is they tend to attack the person and not the issue.

Instead of saying to someone I think you are a stupid idiot, why not say I don't think your arguement has merit and here is why...

And no one should take this common sense arguement as justification for what they are saying, we all are prone to poor debating techniques. I have asked Roberto to remove some of my comments because on hindsight, I felt they were inappropriate.

A good thing to do is count to ten before we respond and then think about the fact that the person being attacked is a human being and has feelings as well.

I humbly submit that Roberto runs a very good blog and I am happy I stumbled on it.

One final two cents worth, running away gets you no where unless you realize that "he who fights and runs away, will live to fight another day." As far as this blog is concerned, if you have to take a break from the current arguement, take a break, come back in a couple of days and there will be a new topic to discuss.

And as Tiny Tim said, "God bless us everone."
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Janice Dawson
New member
Username: Jdson

Post Number: 1
Registered: 3-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 13, 2007 - 12:59 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I find these forums very refreshing. There's not a lot of back stabbing and flame throwing as there is in other forums. Keep up the good work! As a single woman wanting to visit your beautiful country, is there any general advice you have? I'd rather go way down South. Which are the best areas?
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Arial
Member
Username: Arial

Post Number: 64
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 13, 2007 - 1:22 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Great job, Tom. I respect you for this post.

Good suggestions in my opinion. I humbly suggest that we not even say "I dont think your argument has merit." My reason for that is that in the past I have been convinced someone elses argument had no merit. But if I am willing to listen and consider their point, I sometimes learn that it has a LOT of merit. I dont always have all the facts, no matter how I try.

I think this is the difference between true humility and arrogance. Arrogance says I know better than you, I do things better than you. Your point has no merit but mine does! Humility says, although this is how it seems to me at this point, I am willing to hear your argument and to treat you with respect. I admit these things are not always easy, but we sure learn a lot more that way. At least thats how it looks to me from here!

I think youre all great, by the way! I also look forward to the return of those who have left us! Glad to see Robert W back. Rijad is our "boots on the ground" in Mendoza, I think. We await your return, Rijad!

Arial
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1038
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 13, 2007 - 1:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Janice, welcome!

The *general* advice is that you should make yourself comfortable anywhere you go as we are pretty hospitable. More specific advise will depend on factors such as your age, your goals, your expectations, time frame of your stay, etc. Being a single woman should make no difference. Southern Argentina offers a diverse landscape whether you visit the west (andean region) or the east (coastal) and also how far south you want to go. Do you prefer smaller towns such as San Martin or Junin de los Andes? Or larger touristic centers like Bariloche? Is something "hippier/bohemian" more within your likes? Then, explore El Bolson. Questions like this will help us help you better. Perhaps you don't need to travel this far, just south of Buenos Aires to places like Bahia Blanca to find what is what you want...
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Janice Dawson
New member
Username: Jdson

Post Number: 2
Registered: 3-2007
Posted on Tuesday, March 13, 2007 - 3:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Roberto, thank you. Since I once regarded myself as a "hippy", the hippier places sound good! I've read Bariloche is beautiful, but El Bolson does sound promising. I'm in my 40's and have traveled alone for some time. My goals are to have a good time and see all there is to see in a short time. I may be able to swing about 2 weeks. I know that's not enough time to see all I want, but it will have to do for this trip.

I'm still not sure of when I'll be travelling, hopefully in June or July.

Janice
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1039
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 13, 2007 - 5:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ah... must be a second generation of the hippie family. A sort of grateful dead follower. Then, don't forget to investigate "los redonditos de ricota" which may be our equivalent... (just maybe). Yes, a combo Bariloche/El Bolson will be nice. You should also explore the warm water beaches at Las Grutas. And you may still have time for another destination. But remember, the further south you go the more time you will need. Deep southern Argentina is vastly underpopulated and lacks many services. So you should think airplanes.

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