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Robert Gisborn
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Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 92
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 - 12:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Nestor Kirchner has passed into Argentina's history. He was loved and respected by his people. Even his critics must admit he was one of Argentina's greatest leaders. Throughout Latin America the news was taken with great sorrow.
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2018
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 - 2:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

He was feared, not loved. Now the question will be how big the power vacuum. And is she going to become another Isabelita.
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Robert Gisborn
Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 93
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 - 2:58 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Possibly both but your fear about his widow is real. Let's hope not.
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 525
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 - 3:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Isn't he the one who stablized the economy after the revolving door presidents. Wasn't one of them president for a day only. From what I remember they just wanted to qualify for the presidential pension.

I heard good and bad about him.

It seems to me the poeple of Argentina should be able to pick a good president who cares more about the people and the nation than his Swiss bank account.
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Roberto
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Username: Admin

Post Number: 2019
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 - 4:34 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

It wasn't him. No matter what has been written, it was Duhalde together with his chief economist, Lavagña. He inherited a better situation with the wind on his back (grain prices were exploding, fiscal situation greatly improved after the conversion, good management of tax evasion, exports on the rise, etc.).
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Robert Gisborn
Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 94
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 - 5:38 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tom, Kirchner should be put into a historical context.
Here are two links that I think are worthwhile reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabel_Martinez_de_Peron
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_Anticommunist_Alliance

Sometimes you have to pick the best of a selection that is not the best. Didn't Truman once say? "He's an S.. but he's our S.."

(Message edited by admin on October 27, 2010)
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Robert Gisborn
Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 95
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2010 - 8:57 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Roberto, a President is an administrator and requires two essential skills. Communication and judgement. He serves the interests of the State. He must have the judgement to choose a capable team of experts to help him do that. Niccolo Machiavelli's "The Prince" has been translated into every language and has been in continuous publication for over 500 years. Two things a President must do.
1. Deny he has ever read that horrible book and denounce it soundly.
2. Keep a copy in his bed room and consult it often.

As for influence, well, every country tries to have the best politicians money can buy. After all, serving the interests of the State does not preclude getting rich.

Tonight Plaza De Mayo is packed with mourners, These people did love him.
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 526
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2010 - 9:14 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Someone must be happy he's gone.
The bond and stock markets.
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Robert Gisborn
Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 97
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2010 - 11:56 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yes Tom, they should, because it means Christina hasn't a ghost of a chance to be reelected. I could be wrong but I'd bet on it.
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Robert Gisborn
Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 98
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 28, 2010 - 12:05 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Sorry for the typo. I normally just refer to her as Fernandez. There is no h in her first name.
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 527
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Friday, October 29, 2010 - 10:29 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

It seems for the most part he did some good things. Stabalized the economy or it stabalized itself while he was in office.

The one thing he did that I do not like is nationalizing private businesses.

The government in most cases is good at paying for roads and dams and other national infrastructure which is normally done by private contractors while being monitored by government inspectors.

Of course police, fire, military, customs, food inspectors and those types are necessary to protect the public and are best done by the government when it is an elected government.

There can be government corruption in all of these activities carried out by the government.

But when you start adding non traditional economic entities to the government balance sheet that is when corruption can and usually is flagrant. There are too many ways to hide the money when government appointeees are running the operation, buying and selling.

It is one thing for the government to say we are not going to allow exports or imports of certain goods that are being produced or imported by free entities. There may be compelling national reasons to do this. But when the government owns the business in question it becomes more of a problem. They might not stop selling or buying if they are running the business even though it is in the best interest of the country on the whole.
Conversely it is easier for the government to not buy and sell without it being so obvious. Who is going to complain?

China is a prime example of government run businesses not being held accountable to the people. They own the business, they pay what they want and give as much safety considerations to the workers and public as they decide. There is no real oversight.

Why do we keep getting all kinds of faulty goods from China. Everything from lead paint in kids toys to drywall for home construction that has harmful elements that make people sick while actually sweating. Can you imagine seeing mold and moisture on your new walls. And then there is tainted food.
Yes they do lop off the heads of managers when the products are caught by foregin interests but what is not known is whether the manager is just the fall guy. Who really is to blame is harder to figure out.

The government in the US is quick to force companies who often recall on their own bad products and recalls of tainted foods. Faced with oversight of the compaines and the threats of law suits by consumers, companies tend to be more responsible.
When is the last time you heard a consumer in China suing a state owned business?
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Robert Gisborn
Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 99
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, October 29, 2010 - 12:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Your thesis may be true Tom, but the facts on the ground are are complicated. I don't want to open a China can of worms because I'm trying to keep this thread Argentina centered. One trick of all States, some more than others is to flash the socialist card, nationalize private businesses by paying them off for the value they claim on their taxes-which is always too low. Then they give common share holders zilch for their share. Finally, they resell the companies to private parties for the true value. Enemies of Peron are divided in their opinion of him. Some say he was a fascist others say a socialist. Actually both are just cheap labels people like to stick on themselves or others.
The Argentine culture of today is one of free expression. I can find out all the social conditions-some are bad- of Argentina from the Argentine press itself. In my opinion, it remains, despite pressures, the most open in the world. In Argentina no government agency can abuse power because the press will tear into it. In the US a cop can practically shoot someone down if he has a bad hair day. Don't try that in Argentina. The press will climb all over him. The next President will by necessity be a populist who will spout whatever gives him good press. But Argentina is absolutely in no danger of becoming socialist or any kind if ist.
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 528
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Friday, October 29, 2010 - 3:49 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The press in the US is so eat up with political insanity that it has no time to report on a common thing like a cop shooting someone. It happens way to often. I am not trying to denegrate the police in any way. Cops are humans, they act like humans, give them a gun and piss them off and someone is in danger of getting shot.
Right now our press is spewing forth so much hot air about our president, the one who caused all the problems in the entire universe since the world began, yes that one, the reporters and other talking heads have too little time to report the real news.
NPR fires one commentator and Fox news hires him immediately for the same comment.
NPR being a credible news source to all fair minded people including moderate to liberal Republicans, yes they are a few but there are some.
Fox is so far to the right that it is hard to even call it news. Political retoric, hate and bigotry are news only when someone who is not the newsperson is saying them and even then sad to hear.
I am thinking about boycotting advertisers of Fox news. Who can give me some good pointers. Say No to Fox Not News.
or maybe No Fox or Stop Fox. Any thoughts?
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Frances Eddy
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Username: Loquat34

Post Number: 4
Registered: 5-2008
Posted on Friday, October 29, 2010 - 4:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

There is a campaign to take Fox News off the air. Can't provide the site just now but you can probably find it.
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Robert Gisborn
Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 100
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, October 29, 2010 - 7:29 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tom, I'm for freedom of the press regardless of the distortions of truth they commit. Look, we all have a distorted view of the world. When 3000 or so people were killed on 9/11 the media could not stop reporting it. 12,000 people-4 times as many are killed each and EVERY year by drunk drivers in this country. Which is worse, terrorists or drunk drivers? The same goes for Argentina. Clarin.com and Tele Noticias love to take off on violent crime in Argentina. You'd think you'd be shot down as soon as you get off a plane. But of course, just like the US, far more are killed by drunk drivers than are killed by criminals.
We use the media for information but they selectively use information to shape our opinions. There is no news source that is an exception to that. I'm not a right wingnut by any means but I don't think Fox News is all that bad.
In my opinion, the most balanced news sources that I know of are Haaretz and Clarin. I read the NY Times, El Pais(Spain) and Der Spiegel but they have disappointed me many times by out and out lies. Still those three are pretty good. I do read Drudge but I don't rely on him. NPR I find a bit phony.
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 529
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Friday, October 29, 2010 - 10:01 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

it is the only truly non biased reporting station, it is not commercialized in that foundations, the federal government and common Americans fund its programs.

It doesn't get any better when so called news programs are brought to us in living color by big oil, big coal, big sugar, and fast food chains.


I will take NPR over any of the others you list. Any day
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Robert Gisborn
Intermediate Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 102
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 30, 2010 - 1:14 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

The federal government supports NPR. The piper plays the song of the one who pays.
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 530
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Saturday, October 30, 2010 - 10:53 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Robert, On this one you have no clue what you are talking about.
The Feds give grants and then congress complains but NPR goes on reporting the news. I assume you think CSPAN is manipulated also.
Just because the feds are involved does not mean the programming is affected by either the right or left. It is easy to report the truth. Just tell what happens.
The people they bring on to interview state their opinions while the reporters merely ask question.

NPR is possibly the least interferred with news source available in the world today.

Name one that is better and I will disect it and show you you are wrong. DerSpeigle, com on.

National Public Radio is nonbiased.

The federal government gives money to a lot of people, entities and countries. It is taxpayer money. They spend it or give it away.

I do what I want with my VA check. But it is given to me by the feds. Does that mean I have to say what they want me to say.

The USA is the oldest continuous democracy in the world. People are beating down the doors to get in. Not everyone in the world. But enough to realize that something is going on here that a lot of people like.
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Robert Gisborn
Intermediate Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 103
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 30, 2010 - 11:55 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

http://nprcheck.blogspot.com/2009/07/catch-phrase-if-you-will.html

An example.

(Message edited by admin on October 31, 2010)
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Robert Gisborn
Intermediate Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 104
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 30, 2010 - 2:41 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Clarin.com is the most widely read Spanish newspaper on the web.
That alone says something. What is more, The publisher's family has had to defend themselves against deeply personal accusations and invented charges by the President of the country. It has done so with courage and without compromise. Clarin is not beholden to anyone (though Goldmann Sachs holds 18% of the stock). In fact,this news group is considered to be the most powerful political force in the country. It can be as objective as it wants because no private or political group dares challenge it. Ask Cristina Fernandez.
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Robert Gisborn
Intermediate Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 106
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, October 30, 2010 - 7:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

There is one thing I must comment on because it shows why Argentinians are so unique.
There is a strong political battle going on between the peronistas and their rivals -guess who...the peronistas. Only in Argentina.
No, there is a second thing. You think that I may have touched on some heavy historical issues---well the Argentinians do heavy like no one does heavy. They love it. Check out "Vidas Robadas" if you're able to to get Argentine television (telefe).
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AMARAGGI
Junior Member
Username: Amar

Post Number: 42
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2010 - 12:58 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I like very much this conclusion of an article written by Joaquín Morales Solá in La Nacion:
La Presidenta podría creer que la economía y la política se resuelven sólo con la promesa de un proyecto entrañable, heroico y aéreo. Sería el triunfo de la voluntad sobre la ciencia, de la inspiración sobre la inteligencia.

It applies for me to Peron and the actual administration. Victory against science and "inteligencia" have unfortunately a price.
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Robert Gisborn
Intermediate Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 108
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2010 - 2:32 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I would like one example of where Peron-or any other Argentine leader ever proposed such an outrageous idea. Argentina has the highest standards for education and science in Latin America. This probably is attributable to values in the culture but Peron honored those values by funding academics.
Actually, I'm giving the statement some credit for having meaning. Just what the heck is the triumph of will over science supposed to mean?
As for the Kirchners, Their fault was deception. For example, I recently discovered the government's inflation rate for the basic inflation standard, which translates roughly the basic basket of goods-that part of the economy called non descretionary, was misrepresented by almost 100%
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Robert Gisborn
Intermediate Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 109
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2010 - 2:42 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I probably should link to the stats I was referring to although I have supplied this link elsewhere in the forum.

http://www.clarin.com/politica/precios-Moreno-subieron-ultimos-anos_0_363563676.html

A note: When reading Argentine stats. Argentina is one the countries that use almost exclusively the comma decimal but there are exceptions. I've seen exceptions with denominations in Euros and US dollars also in scientific notations.

(Message edited by admin on October 31, 2010)
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 531
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2010 - 3:41 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Grading NPR on a blog written by someone who is extreemely biased and opinionated is not a true determiner of the value of the reporting.
NPR lets all idiots scream whatever they want on it.
Listen to the Diane Rheme(sp?) show sometime.
Librals claim it is rightwing and Conservatives call it a liberal mouth piece.
Sounds like it pisses everyone off a lot.
It is called reporting the news.
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Robert Gisborn
Intermediate Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 110
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2010 - 9:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

To be more precise about the deception of the K's look at this from today's Clarin:

http://www.ieco.clarin.com/economia/deplorable-situacion-estadistica-argentina_0_181800001.html

We can't rely on the statistics this government issued. The inflation rates they gave were bogus- their statistics were bogus.

Tom, I think we can agree that people in our government and military have done shameful things over the years. NPR has reported on these only after the stories were broken by others. It itself never broke any. Reporters risked their reputations, freedom and lives to break these stories but they weren't from NPR. They sure weren't a Juan Williams who quite easily slipped from NPR to Fox news.

(Message edited by admin on October 31, 2010)
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 532
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 9:22 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

You make my point very well.

Who breaks the story is not everything. Since NPR relies on foundations, government handouts and the common man, donors like you and me, it does not have the resources like those funded by big oil, big coal, big sugar, the military industrial complex and others who have their own agendy to put forth.

Juan Williams is a good fit for fox, a biased no class reporter.

Fox is a propaganda sheet and if you don't see that you are blind or prejudiced or both. The hate they spew out is disgusting and harmful. People have killed other people after listening to Fox hate mongers.

Fox is plainly disgusting.
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Arial
Advanced Member
Username: Arial

Post Number: 357
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 16, 2010 - 3:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Really enjoyed your discussion here. Many thanks.

For whatever it is worth, I think that Fox is an instrument of manipulation that comes across with the right propaganda when necessary. I think they try to present themselves as what you guys call "right" but I would call "conservative," to get the conservatives following them. Conservatives are great followers and once won over to thinking you are on their side, will believe whatever propaganda you put out. (But maybe that's human nature.)

Then, when the powers that be (PTB) need them, they come across with false information. This is who I think they are. I have seen it enough times that I don't bother with them. But then I don't know much decent reporting in the U.S. anyway!
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Robert Gisborn
Intermediate Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 143
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 - 7:50 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mundo/america_latina/2010/08/100806_argentina_desaparecidos_banco_genetico_adn_clarin.shtml

Dona Kristina has won two favorable votes from me. The first is her sensible decision on responding the the public space disorders with caution and without the threat of an armed police stand off. The second-as principled-is her pursuit of the biological parents of the adopted son and daughter of the Noble family-Marcela and Felipe-despite their resistance. Listen, the I found her on the porch story holds no water and the reason for being far less than candid indicates to me that these children were likely taken from parents executed by the junta and given to her. If not, why oppose genetic testing?
Maybe instead of worrying about what pills she's taken Hillary could take some lessons in judgment from her.

(Message edited by admin on December 22, 2010)
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dan arrowood
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Username: Mtnhombre

Post Number: 4
Registered: 8-2010
Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 - 8:05 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The Los Angeles Times had a good article on the political turnabout going one in Argentina. besides an interesting observation, it's always nice to see any article on argentina in the press since america tends to think latin america ends at mexico.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-argentina-kirchner-20101221,0,4393261.story

(Message edited by admin on December 22, 2010)
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webdesign456.blogspot.com
New member
Username: Viviana456

Post Number: 12
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 - 8:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello everybody.
I´m an argentine woman.
"The KIRCHNER" was the most corrupt government of Argentina.
They increased their patrimony 50 times, what do you think?
I think some argentine people have nothing on their heads.
Nestor died and now he is good people? No! sorry but no.
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Robert Gisborn
Intermediate Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 144
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2010 - 11:51 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I think we need another Fangio to bring Argentina back to US public attention.
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Robert Gisborn
Intermediate Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 145
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2010 - 12:01 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Viviana, True, the Kirchner's packed their pockets but let's give Kristina Fernandez time to show what she can do without the big bully Nestor. Viviana, is their a provincial government in Argentina that has not been charged with corruption? One must make a relative judgment of Kristina. She hasn't had anyone murdered. That's a plus.
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Robert Gisborn
Intermediate Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 146
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 7:02 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

http://www.clarin.com/politica/Roca-vias-corte-tercerizados_0_395360656.html

What Kristina and her government must do is convince males between 18 and 30 years old that randomly destroying property, injuring and killing people is not something one gets away with, with a slap on the hand. In the US these hoodlums would have been shot and killed-by the owners of the property they attacked. There was no excuse for this robbery and vandalism. This is not play. The people who do it must face serious legal consequences. Far more harsher than Argentinian justice has been dispensing lately.
We're dealing with a poorly socialized class. Education will be the ultimate cure. But clearly, because the hoodlums allowed them selves to be photographed as they destroyed and robbed proves they have no fear for the justice system.
To all residents I'll say. Don't just write a barrio of your city off. This social sickness can reach you despite your neighborhood or steel gates.
This riot was broadcasted live- throughout the world- by telefe

(Message edited by admin on December 24, 2010)
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Nelieta Mishchenko
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Username: Tinktinkie

Post Number: 16
Registered: 7-2010
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 7:16 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

It is becoming a big problem in Argentina - the lack of respect for other people's property. I believe there is too much freedom in Argentina. If you commit a crime and you are under 18 years of age you don't go to prison. What kind of a message is that sending out to prospective criminals?

I am not sure if education is going to solve it. Public univerities are for free but a lot of young people don't want to go and study. They ahve children at a very young age and live with their parents until they are deep into their 30's.

Maye a lot of the problems lately are politically motivated with the elections coming up next year. Christina is not powerful enough to take the bull by the horns and to enforce order.
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AMARAGGI
Junior Member
Username: Amar

Post Number: 43
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2010 - 7:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Robert,
What Cristina has really to do is to work seriously for the people. I am now living in Palermo and have been during days with constant cut of electricity and Palermo was not the only barrio in the city. Tonight there are riots at Constitution's train station due to one more demonstration. Things are just not working and politicians and civil servants don't seem to care. That is the real cause of the rising violence. Are you really considering that to have 25% of inflation per year in a country like Argentina is the proof of a great presidency? Are you really considering that by increasing in a shameful way her wealth she is defending the working class?
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Robert Gisborn
Intermediate Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 147
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, December 24, 2010 - 8:13 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

A cut off of electrical power often happens in the summer in many cities of the world-Los Angeles-for example. The system simply gets overloaded by the use of air conditioners. We can't build infinite systems to satisfy infinite demands. But getting back to the Constitucion labor disturbance and riot. These young men were simply behaving like animals. Granted, the sudden cut off of service was itself inexcusable but the rioters attacked everything with random violence. The President's order not to respond with guns can only be obeyed up to a certain level of violent attacks. When the crowd starts to kill the response must be the use of deadly force to save innocent lives. It was random violence that brought military dictatorships to South American countries-And that brings up another point. This riot will not get the same world news attention as a similar one in Europe or North America because it is felt that such behavior can be expected in Latin America-and that's not news. A democracy is not possible in a country whose citizens practice and excuse criminal behavior. Such behavior must be punished rapidly and with severity.
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AMARAGGI
Junior Member
Username: Amar

Post Number: 44
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, December 24, 2010 - 8:59 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

In Bs As there is no work of infrastructure. Towers are being built but the sewer, electric cables, water supply are still as if we were in the forties. Same apply for trains etc. That's the job of a government. Cuts of electricity here have nothing to do with what happens in LA or Europe. They are systemic. There is a default of governance because all energy is devoted to other issues. But at a moment the system will break.
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Nelieta Mishchenko
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Username: Tinktinkie

Post Number: 17
Registered: 7-2010
Posted on Friday, December 24, 2010 - 10:48 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I was actually impressed with the train service. I have used the train a couple of times from Cordoba Capital to Buenos Aires capital. Agreed the trains could be upgraded but they were not falling apart.
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Robert Gisborn
Intermediate Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 148
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Friday, December 24, 2010 - 2:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The government of Argentina can only do infrastructure improvements with the tax revenues they have. If those tax revenues must be spent to keep law and order and to repair damage from vandalism then their will be less for infrastructure. The governed and the government are in a partnership. If the governed squander resources it is their tax money they are squandering. Also, those municipalities and provinces that keep their houses in order don't want to pay for some wild party time in BA. They'll withhold funds to the federal government and keep them locally-and yes they can do it. You may not think you're squandering resources but how many people do you know who cook with a hot oven while running the air conditioner. This is a gross waste of energy.
You're a democracy. You vote for your representatives. You are responsible for your country as much as the president is.
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 542
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 11:56 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

From what I am told Argentines must vote, the law says you have to vote or you lose any government benifits including the right to have a drivers license, a passport and you are not eligeble to recieve any government benefits including retirement(social security) benefits. We need the same law in the United States.
Those provinces and municipalities .... withhold funds to the federal government and keep them locally and they can do it you say.
A government no matter what form is actually the people who run it. The provincial or municipal official who makes the decision to withhole taxes can be put in Jail. The people who run the federal government control the federal police and the Army.
The last time the provinces defied Buenos Aires they lost in a bloody war.
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 543
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 12:01 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Been doing the holiday cheer so I am a little behind.
So Robert, someone commiting vandalism should be shot dead. Is that what you are saying?
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 544
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 12:29 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Amaraggi
Madam Kirchner is taking money for personal use?
Usally government officials do care about riots and lawlessness. They are citizens also. If there is too much lawlessness they might lose their job and who knows, get strung up like Mussolini.
When riots occur the police are usually outnumbered. Want to make the world news. Have the police open fire on the demonstrators and kill a few dozen. The world will hear about it, even the Chineese. They love it when someone else shoots their citizens, it makes them feel good about shooting theirs.

95% of the wealth in the US is controlled by 5% of the population. I have a feeling this is close to the same numbers you would find in Argentina and most anywhere else.

Poverty leads to anger and despair. Desperate men do desperate things.
Angry men have been known to kill

Then there are the skinheads with their perverse sense of right and wrong who are just to mean and stupid to care about anyone other than those who are just like them.
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 545
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 12:59 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Neilieta
18 year olds in the US do not go to jail either. We do have reform schools i.e. kids jail. In certain cases of murder a juvenile may be tried in court as an adult and if convicted face prison or and in some states execution.
Certain education helps but Nothing is going to solve it. Things will get better or worse. God can cure it but He is not so inclined.
The education a youth gets in prison isn't what I would consider a good education.

Who do you think will be Madame Kirchner's challenger that actually has a chance to replace her?
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 546
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 1:03 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Robert, how do you know she has not had anyone murdered.
The majority lf murders are not a public event although it does happen quite often.
Did you mean she is not known as a murderer?
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 547
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 1:18 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Robert, "I think we need another Fangio to bring Argentina back to US public attention."

Why does the common man of the US have to worry about Argentina's problems. Don't we have enough of our own. Watch the news. Isn't it depressing enough?

I don't think Argentina has a monopoly on troubles in South America.

Dare I bring up again the commie in Venezuela who never ceases to try to become dictator. HE is making news in the US. Let's see Madame Kirchner make some of the decrees he has made in Venezuela. You want to talk about riots, you will see some real riots then.

According to the CIA Argentina has the highest level of education in all of South America. And there is a free press. I don't see a communist or any other type dictator taking over there anytime soon, if ever.
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AMARAGGI
Junior Member
Username: Amar

Post Number: 45
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 1:23 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

It is really difficult to understand Argentina politics for a foreigner but the way it goes may be the following one:
Instead of investing in infrastructures, education and development the money is spent directly to subsidize poor people and services like electricity, water and gaz.
This creates a direct link between the rulers and a large part of the population that votes for them, a perfect example of clientelism. They don't see that inflation takes away what they get and keep the country depending only of agriculture. Since electricity, water etc are supplied at a ridiculous price people are spoiling them. It is not uncommon to see swimming pool emptied every week or air conditioning working in empty places. It seems also that some unions have a disproportioned power. So how to get out from this cocktail? Seems pretty hard and all my Argentinan friends are quite pessimistic.
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MIchael Calero
Intermediate Member
Username: Michael795

Post Number: 162
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 1:28 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

It is a fact that Kristina pays 100 pesos for people to attend her rallies. Also, in the elections where her husband lost his pants, the navy ship of Venezuela, left Buenos aires enroute to Uruagay , and returned to Buenos Aires with luggages filled with money to pay people for votes. They did that since the election of Kristina they got caught bring in money from Velezuela via Miami and those individuals were arrested. So they did it another way.
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 548
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 1:41 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hola webdesign.
Isn't Nester Kirchner the one who took over after the 3 or 4 presidents for a day resigned.

Want to talk about some intelligent men. Be president for a day and then have a presidential retirement check come in every month and, they are not being attacked for anything but being wise.

All the glory and none of the blame. hmmm...
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 549
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 1:58 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Amaraggi, where does anyoney change the pool water once a week?
I live in Florida USA. We use chemicals to clean the water. The only time I have ever seen a pool emptied other than to winterize or to repair it was the time some kid dropped a Baby Ruth candy bar in the club house pool. It was pretty shocking(pun intended). Once the pool was drained Bill Murray ate the Baby Ruth.

Emptying a pool once a week is a gross waste of a natural resources. don't you agree.
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Nelieta Mishchenko
New member
Username: Tinktinkie

Post Number: 18
Registered: 7-2010
Posted on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 2:01 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Tom,

It is commonly known here in Argentina that the government is paying each family 300 pesos per child per month. I know 300 pesos is not enough to raise a child but that is how she works with the poor people to get votes. She is paying the poor people to vote for her. I am not sure how it is done but I have heard people speaking about this before. Her aim is to destroy the middle and upper class and keep everybody poor. What is really upsetting people living in Argentina is the fact that a lot of Bolivians have settled in the country, have a lot of children and expects the goverment to build houses for them and provide facilities. What are they contributing towards the economy? If you have 6 children you don't have to work and could live of the government benefits. You will always be poor. I often visit immigration in Cordoba and cannot believe how many Bolivians are standing in the line to apply for a residency permit.

This is exaclty why some of the riots have been started. The police are not allowed to interfere (a direct order from the president) so what do they do? Stand back and watch how they kill each other.

I love living in Argentina believe me it is a lot better than living in South Africa. But Argentina has a lot of problems which will not be fixed overnight. I don't think you will see a dictator in Argentina soon, God forbid that the country will suffer like that again. But they need a strong hand to rule this country and I don't believe she fits the description.

In terms of the taxes. A lot of people are worried where the money is going. They all believe that the Kircheners have stolen money (and presidents before them). There is a big amount of distrust but like somebody said all people must vote. Are the votes being tampered with? I am not sure even though accusations have been made in the past.
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 550
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 2:05 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

MIchael. Do you have to be Argentine to get the 100 pesos to attend one of her rallies?
Let's see, attend about 40 rallies and the ticket to Argentina from Miami is pretty much paid for(not including checked luggage).

Seems like a lot of work. Maybe they deserve the money after all.
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MIchael Calero
Intermediate Member
Username: Michael795

Post Number: 163
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 2:09 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The situation in Argentina is live day by day, with the unknown, even many who can convert pesos into dollars just in case if there is a change which isn't right.
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Carlos Gelbart
Junior Member
Username: Buellwinkle

Post Number: 30
Registered: 1-2010
Posted on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 2:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I still have a few pesos, maybe 5, should I convert to USD now, or wait and see?
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 551
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 2:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Robert "Maybe instead of worrying about what pills she's taken Hillary could take some lessons in judgment from her."

That statement in my humble opinion is uncalled for.

but, tit for tat.

George Bush? He inherited the no 1 job in the US from his predecessor Bill Clinton, Hillary's husband you may recall, with the country enjoying a balanced budget, no foreign war involvements and a nation well respected worldwide.
Post George.
One might say he screwed up the country so bad that when he left the two main and one viable contenders for office in the Democratic party were a woman, a hispanic and a black man. Nothing wrong with that. But what I am thinking is the American people were so angry they wanted as total a change as was humanly possible from an anglo saxon white guy. A question. Have you ever heard anyone praise George for his brilliance and were actually serious about it?
He preferred lines of coke to pills anyday.

Hillary is doing a good job as the Secretary of State of the US, arguably the most powerful cabinet office in the government.

Most women are more intelligent than most men when given the same opportunities.
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Tom
Senior Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 552
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 2:49 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Carlos, I am not a finacial advisor but I would wait and see.
That's what I'm doing.
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Robert Gisborn
Intermediate Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 150
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 8:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The Argentinians understand that Americans don't mind BARGAINING in dollars. They're (Americans) reckoning their costs in dollars not pesos. This is a good way for Argentinians to get dollars. BUT if a restaurant is charging 40 pesos for a pizza then that's what the American expects to pay. When bargaining for a room I always offer to bargain in dollars CASH without any messy paper trail. We both get a good deal. In 55 years I've never been stiffed-anywhere.
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Robert Gisborn
Intermediate Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 151
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 9:04 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Neileta, national identities were imposed on the indigenous people by the Europeans. To these tribes from Bolivia, Argentina is their land and they are literally starving-a number have starved to death in northern Argentina. I didn't see them vandalizing the Constitucion train station and the innocent merchants in the area. I didn't see them-and I watched this incident minute by minute-steal items from the vandalized stores. If anything,the indigenous peoples make Argentina a richer place. Without them there would be no hierba mate to drink.
If you fail to personally know these people you will have suffered the loss of a rich experience. And they need help. Their babies are hungry. Please help them.
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Robert Gisborn
Intermediate Member
Username: Bgisborn

Post Number: 152
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Monday, December 27, 2010 - 9:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tom, when I was young, Fangio was the idol of every boy and young man. My only knowledge of Argentina was it was the place Fangio was from. He was like Messi and Maradona-and Firpo-put together(for my part you could throw in Valentino but my mom would not agree). Fangio was the greatest race car driver who ever lived. The only other person -Schumacher- who now gets that title says Fangio was the greatest.

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