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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 634
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 1:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

This topic deserves its own thread...
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Cynthia Edelberg
New member
Username: Morggan

Post Number: 1
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello everyone, I'm a new member. There seems to be a wealth of information out there on how to purchase property in Argentina. Still, I'd like to ask some questions and this forum looks the perfect place...

1. When buying a property... is it necessary to be in Buenos Aires to get the CDI (the tax id)? Or you can name a rep? And if you can, must be a lawyer?
I know some real estate companies or advisors that will do this for you, but you must pay them thousands of dollarswhen you enroll in the whole process, and I think I can do it by myself (I know, you will say I'm taking to many risks, but I have a pretty fair judgment myself).

2. For someone who's interested in purchasing an apartment in Buenos Aires, the best way, as I read, for wiring money is through a "casa de cambio". Is it Piano the most reliable? Could you recommend another name? Someone named a Private Bank. Is it the same as Casa de Cambio? What private bank is that one?

3. Do you need to open an account at casa de cambio to receive your own money in Buenos Aires?

4. Do you need to be there to cash in your funds? Or you can name a rep?

5. Suppose the money arrives safe and sound to casa de cambio (or wherever). Then, once the money is there, what do you do? Hire a gunned guard to help you leave the place with a bag full of dollars? How do you handle the cash?

Well, that's more than enough for a first timer. Hope I don't bother you too much with so many questions. And thanks in advance to all of you. Hope someone can help.
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Riyad Anabtawi
Member
Username: Riyada

Post Number: 61
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:11 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Cynthia
My experience:
You need a CDI to purchase property or a car, and you have to do it yourself. It is (was) very easy, you need 2 witnesses to testify your residence : could be any temporary residence.
No need to open an account in casa de cambio. Just ask for wire instructions, and wire the funds. The cash is handed to you over the counter. Piano is well known. Reputable place.
When the funds arrive, make sure you use an address of someone you dont like very much, cos some insider in the casa de cambio might want to call some thieves to go get your money. hahaha.. True here in Mendoza.
Most casas de cambio will offer an armed guard, whom they have on location, to follow you to your car, after all, they made money on the commission.
Cheers
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Cynthia Edelberg
New member
Username: Morggan

Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Riyad,
thanks, that's speed of light! Thanks for the thorough reply.
So you mean I must be there to get the CDI? I read somewhere (I guess it was apartmentsba.com but am not sure now) that you can hire someone who will get the id for you. Otherwise, how someone who's overseas may end up buying property without even stepping on the plane? Yes, I think the story is at apartmentsba.com.
What I want to know is if you can hire a rep to get the CDI for you?
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Riyad Anabtawi
Member
Username: Riyada

Post Number: 62
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Cynthia
That I am not sure about hiring a rep..
In my view, I wouldnt want to be away or not present when I am making such important decisions such as investing heavieshly.
If you know woot oy mean.
Riyad
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Cynthia Edelberg
New member
Username: Morggan

Post Number: 3
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 11:30 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I see your point. it's true.
Has anybody here did the actual purchase through a casa de cambio? Is it easy to get away (even with an armed man) with a bag full of dollars? Looks to me nuts. Is it the real story or is it that may be the big guys like apartmentsba.com who are doing their own business (like real estate brokers) would hire a place in a bank, and you would, let's say, would wire your money from your own acct at Citibank US to Citibank BA, and do the whole transfer of deeds in the same bank. That would make more sense, right? than running with tons of cash around the city. Is anyone here able to tell his experience?
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Tom Woodson
Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 93
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 10:19 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I have a question
What is the fee for Cambio. It has been my experience that fees can be very high when dealing with financial institutions.

I know that American Express has an office in Buenos Aires where you can cash Amex travelers checks and recieve pesos or dollars.
I have done it myself. They charge a fee but you can find out the exact amount by calling American Express.

Good luck.
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 625
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Welcome Cynthia!

Only someone who has done so can really answer. You can't get away with "in-bank" transfers. All money transfered into the banking system is settled by the central bank and there is paperwork to be filled, unless it is up to 3k/month from personal account to personal account for the purpose of 'family help'.

The 'casas de cambio' may do something even simpler. They may ask you to wire funds to a bank in an offshore location and then you could collect the equivalent in pesos in Argentina. So no transfer takes place. Casas de cambio can fund this type of operations. Argentines wouldn't mind because they *know* how this works but for the average american this may look like an out-of-the-body experience. No receipts, no reference numbers... notin. The best and most secure route would be to go through a bank and cope with all the paperwork.

Walking out any place with a bag full of dollars is always risky.
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Cynthia Edelberg
New member
Username: Morggan

Post Number: 4
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 3:29 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Roberto,
Sorry, but I still don't get it. You say there is no way to transfer "in-bank" unless it's under 3k. So how do you go then and do "the best and most secure route" which is to "go through a bank and cope with all the paperwork"? Is there a way to transfer 100.000 from Citibank US to Citibank BA?
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 626
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 5:31 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

> would wire your money from your own acct at Citibank US to Citibank BA

I said that in response to the above, meaning that although the accounts may belong to one owner in one bank, you are actually dealing with 2 countries and 2 different banking systems. So it is not like wiring from your Citibank account in Mississippi to your Citibank account in New York. This can't be thought of as an intrabank transfer. Your funds travel from one country to another.

Because of this, many more regulations come into play. Some may not make sense at all and are regulations that have been created due to specific problems in each country. Yes, you can transfer all the money you want from your Citibank account in USA to the one you or someone else owns in Citibank Buenos Aires but be prepared to fill out a lot of paperwork. Even so, this is a safe route.

You can transfer up to 3k from any place in the world to your savings account in Argentina for purposes of 'family help' with minimum paperwork, just filling in a simple form when the funds arrive. Remember, these are dollars that need to be converted into pesos and the central bank will not do so if they can't "account" for that transaction. So 'family help' helps them categorize all those annoying minor transactions. But anything above this may require a different justification. If someone sells you property and you wire a large amount, the argentine bank may ask the seller for an invoice.

In Argentina, the official currency is pesos. Whatever money arrives through banking has to be exchanged. The central bank does this while accounting for the operations, like when argentine exporters receive foreign payments for selling grain. Transactions that are less common are difficult to handle by the domestic regulations. An argentine based company that sells over the internet -and only to foreigners- will have to cope with a nightmare of paperwork to justify the incoming foreign funds. They will have to present special type of invoices that can only be obtained through the local IRS. And they will have to do this every time there are incoming funds. So it is not like you can wire dollars and magically have argentine pesos in you *argentine-american* bank account... There is a reason why people would opt for the "casas de cambio" greater risk and walk through the door with a bag full of money.

Should you find someone that has done this in a different way please post the information here!
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Cynthia Edelberg
New member
Username: Morggan

Post Number: 5
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 9:51 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Roberto, thank you. Your information is priceless. So you mean most people would rather use casa de cambio for their wiring. But someone said wiring money through casa de cambio is not quite legal. What portion of the transaction is black? Would that hinder my possibilities of getting the money safe and sound, and as quick as possible?
Being both illegal (please correct me if I'm wrong) and risky, isn't it worth to fill the paperwork?
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 630
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 11:53 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Cynthia, I do not know what most people do. I only said some people would opt for that option, according to what I heard. Furthermore, I do not know with certainty why they would make that decision as I have never talked to anyone who has done this and I have never requested myself a transaction like this through a 'casa de cambio'. I only know about the banking system because I have dealt personally with local banks in order to transfer different amounts of money.

And in light of my experience with how the whole system works, I stated a personal opinion expressing no surprise in people looking into alernative ways of handling transfers. This is as much as I can say... For what is legal or not you may want to contact a lawyer in each country, or at least, one in Argentina.
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 631
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 12:07 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I am adding this too... The answers you are trying to obtain will very likely not be found in any forum or private messaging. I am pretty sure anyone trying to transfer funds has found what worked for them through small trial and errors, first ATMs, then small transactions through banks, then friends, then casas de cambio, then other friends and so on. Along this route, you may bump into a solution that fits your needs, perhaps.
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Tom Woodson
Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 94
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 3:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

It is my understanding you have to be an Argentine citizen to open a bank account there. Does anyone know for sure about this?

Banks charge fees for their services. I do not know the amounts. I once had a small check for forty or fifty dollars. I found out that to cash it at the local bank in Argentina would cost more than the check was worth. So I just waited to get back to the US to cash it.

If you are going to use Citibank call them or visit their web site. Here is a list of banks in Argentina

http://www.escapeartist.com/argentina12/banco.htm

If you call citibank It would be interesting to know what they said whether you decide to go that route or not.

Good luck
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Cynthia Edelberg
New member
Username: Morggan

Post Number: 6
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 3:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Roberto, thanks again for your insight. The idea of trying different ways is interesting, although I don't have much time to do my own search... that's why I posted my question here.
I have an account with Citibank and I will call the officer during next week and post his answer. I thought having a Citi Gold Card would allow me to cash out from a BA branch all the money needed to purchase the apartment.
I have no idea if this will be more difficult or more expensive than a regular exchange office.
Moreover, if it were so easy as to go use both Citibank ends for the whole transaction, then why people would stick with the primitive and risky way? I'm scratching my head...
If there is any other guy out there who would like to contribute with their experience, I'd be glad to know. I read Apartmentsba.com use a system called "private bank", and there seems to be a lot more guys who have been doing quite a lot of transactions and know exactly how to do it. I'd be happy to hear from them.
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Riyad Anabtawi
Member
Username: Riyada

Post Number: 64
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 5:54 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

So much confusion
Dont have to be an Argentinian to open an account here in Arg. Only need a CDI, plus I wouldnt even dream about opening one permanently.
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 633
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 6:00 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Like Tom suggested, please post here the answer of the officer when you have it. I would not be surprised if the answer is that you can't do it.

If 'private bank' refers to private banking, then, what you may need is to open an account with a broker such as Goldman or Merrill or many others. Most commercial entities are now associated to their own private banks whether they have purchased an institution or struck a deal. For example, Regions in the US works together with Morgan Keegan (I think they were bought by UP, which were bought in turn by Regions). A private banking account is different than a commercial or savings account and is subject to different regulations too. I am not an expert on this subject but even if you move your money through private banking you may still end up -at some point- depositing/collecting/transfering that money to a commercial bank. Another hurdle, since many of these brokerage houses have left Argentina or have small offices... That is why Uruguay always come back. Let's wait to hear from your officer...

Tom, if I am correct you do not need to be an argentine citizen to open an account. What you need is PROOF of residence, which normally means that your DNI has your argentine address. Which in turn may require a signed declaration from your closest police station called proof of address. Expats/foreigners who have become residents may know more about it.
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Tom Woodson
Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 95
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 7:58 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

thanks Roberto
Hopefully someone does have that answer.

I know that you can transfer funds from a US bank account to a foreign bank account.

But again the guestion goes back to can a foreigner have an account in Argentina.

I will be in Buenos Aires soon. Anyone know what the weather is like there now.
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Tom Woodson
Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 96
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 8:03 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Riyad
What documents do I need to bring with me to open an account in an Argentine bank besides my passport?

I know for a fact I cannot get a regular cell phone account in Argentina. I can buy a phone and the little prepaid chips but not a regular account that is billed by the amount of usage.
I have tried unsuccessfully to do so at several different phone dealers.
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Riyad Anabtawi
Member
Username: Riyada

Post Number: 65
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 8:20 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tom
Get the dough over via a casa de cambio. Someone here said it was illegal. I dont get that ..
Documents to open a bank account: CDI (for that you need 2 witnesses to prove your residence, could be temporary) and ID (passport) CDI is like a Social Security Number. It is an unique ID number. You would need that to do all financial transactions, like buying property, cars etc..
This is getting frustrating.
Why so much queries to such a simple task?
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Tom Woodson
Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 97
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 8:35 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

One who knows how to do a task can call it simple.
One who doesn't can question how to make it simple.
Thanks, now I know. And maybe someone else does also.
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Cynthia Edelberg
New member
Username: Morggan

Post Number: 7
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 9:49 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Me too, I find this thread really enlighting, and I thank everyone for sharing their piece of information.
I'll post what I hopefully get from citibank. Have a great weekend (gosh, here's 100 *F, we're melting)
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movingtoargentina.typepad.com
Junior Member
Username: Sapphos

Post Number: 39
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 7:23 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Cynthia, regarding getting a CDI without being here, probably it is possible but it would essentially require someone being paid off somewhere along the way to turn a "blind eye" to the fact you're not there.

We had a difficult time getting our CDI (Clave de Identificacion) in the province of Buenos Aires. This was because AFIP (this is the office that issues your CDI http://www.afip.gov.ar/) has begun a campaign to require foreigners to get a Power of Attorney for a local rep/contact from someone who is a resident. Theoretically this POA means that AFIP can make sure you pay your taxes when you're supposed to and that you don't just let your property sit for several years accumulating taxes they want to collect. Residents often let their taxes accumulate until they sell a property but the tax office has started a campaign to collect back taxes on everything from property to luxury cars etc.

However in the city itself, it's often for whatever reason much easier.

You need to go to the local police station near where you are living (you could be living in a hotel for a short term) with your passport and ask for a Certificado de Domicilio.
They will usually show up within 24 hours to verify you live there (in the suburbs this is one thing they didn't do for us, they issued it right there with our lease).
Next, you take your certificado de domicilio and passport and go to the AFIP office in the area that covers the residence which you can find by going to this link at AFIP http://www.afip.gov.ar/servicios_y_consultas/consu ltas_en_linea/datos_de_dependencias/agencias/agenc ias_main.asp
put in your street address and the local office will pop up. Get there early as a line forms outside. The tricky part is that once you get in, everyone runs like crazy to get a ticket so they won't be there all day, but you have to know which area to head for. A good way is you have someone with you who speaks Spanish, and then if you're not sure, you collect numbers from all of them If you sleep here, you'll definately be the last one in line.

With your CDI as has been said, you can buy property, cars, and you will be able to open a savings account at places like Banco Rio - although it could take you a few banks to find one willing to open the account.

About the cambista or casa de cambio. There are possibilities to have the seller meet you at the cambio and do the transfer thereby taking the worries off of you to walk out with the cash. Many people have done this. Also, remember that if you transfer money to a bank account here, it will go to pesos and then back to dollars effectively causing a slight loss in your transfer.

Last but not least. Citibank Argentina is a separate entity from Citibank N.A. You must get used to the fact that this is how it works. I was told that by more than one person in the U.S. as well as here. It's the same for HSBC and many other international banks. We don't even use our Citibank card here to withdraw money at Citibank atms as we get a better exchange rate at other banks. However, we are allowed to take out more money at one time than many other U.S. atm/debit cards allow.

Hope this helps to clarify some things.
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Apartmentsba.com
Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 68
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 7:04 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

There is so much false information out there. Personally, I wouldn't use message boards to make important financial decisions. The information above is wrong when one poster says that getting a CDI "essentially requires someone getting paid off along the way" if you aren't in the country". That couldn't be more wrong. You should use a proper Power of Attorney apostillized with a Hague Convention Seal and sent to Argentina and you can have your lawyer or representitive get your CDI number for you. I've done it over 100 times for my clients. Actually you can purchase a property never even stepping foot into Argentina.

The sad fact is that most foreigners don't know the complex ever changing laws/regulations here. The poster WAS correct when they said that as a foreigner you must have a local resident or Argentina corporation in charge of handling tax matters including paying your property "asset tax" each year. Most foreigners aren't even aware they are supposed to pay this asset tax since their realtors or lawyers never mentioned it. There are very severe penalties for not being up to date on it. I can't tell you how many people aren't aware of this until they try to sell their property.

Remember, as a foreigner you can NOT sell your property without a permit from AFIP allowing you to sell it. They will of course check to make sure you are up to date on ALL your taxes including asset taxes and rental taxes (if you are renting out your property). If you aren't paying asset taxes, you better find a local or a local company to represent you. You will have problems if you don't.

It IS possible to open a bank account without a DNI number but it's not easy. Most don't allow you to and technically you should have a DNI number. Personally, I wouldn't keep much money in it. Due yourself a favor and keep most of your cash offshore in the USA/Europe.

Remember that most of these casa de cambios are not "white". Granted the majority of the transactions are in "black/blue" but that is no excuse if you have problems later. Also remember you should use a known and trusted entity. Basically what you are doing is wiring cash to THEM.

It's unfortunate but many people buying here in Argentina have no clue about the process or laws or procedures and they act in a way they wouldn't in their home country. For example, in the USA, you wouldn't use an attorney that doesn't speak English, you wouldn't buy without knowing the regulations, you wouldn't wire cash to a stranger, etc. Don't do it just because you are in South America. If anything, you should be even more vigilent. Just some free advice for you.

Good luck all.
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Cynthia Edelberg
New member
Username: Morggan

Post Number: 8
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 8:11 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thank you to you both (movinargentina and apartmentsba) for taking time to answer to my question.
Thanks Roberto to open this interesting thread (I stemmed out of my question! wow)
Saint, your free advice is appreciated. Seems to be more there that you know and that you wouldn't release so easily.
I spoke with a friend (A) today who did sent money to Argentina recently. Actually, it was money he lent to a friend (B) who's living and working in Argentina in a translation company.
This is what he did: A, who lives in NY, wrote a check of $15,000 and sent it to Argentina with an acquaintance (C) who was traveling that night.
C in turn, handed the check to B.
B went to casa de cambio and spoke with someone called D there. This is the tricky part of the thing. You must know "someone" at casa de cambio. D was an acquaintance of my friend's father (E)! (believe me it's true).
So A from NY called E in Argentina, who then called D and said: "John is OK".
D opened the back door of casa de cambio to John and received the check.
Now, listen what happened!! Without even asking a question, without even waiting for clearance (which would have taken days), D gave B $15,000 in cash!!! A pile of cash and no receipt!!. Amazing!!!! And I must tell you that my father's friend is not a politician, not a movie star, just a regular person who happens to do lots of business with casa de cambio, and is a well known and respected person there.
So all one needs is someone who knows someone at casa de cambio and the whole world is at your feet!!
Now I understand how so many people end up getting hundreds of thousands of dollars there without moving a finger.
I guess the "illegal" part of it is that the money actually never hit the Argentine bank system. It's always offshore.
I guess the same can be done with, not just $15,000 but $100,000 to purchase a house. Is it?
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Cynthia Edelberg
New member
Username: Morggan

Post Number: 9
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 8:14 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Actually, it was somewhat less than $15,000 as casa de cambio cashed in a commision of 1.5%
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 636
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 10:41 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Cynthia, you just witnessed an argentine-out-of-the-body experience...

On a more serious note, the only part that was illegal in that transaction was not the 'out of the system exchange' but getting into a plane with more than 10k without reporting it. Someone correct me, but I think you cannot enter or leave the US with more than that. Or is this cash only?

Checks travel back and forth all the time as commisions get paid this way. And casas de cambio can act as clearing houses as much as Publix or Kroger can cash you your checks locally. Even private prestamistas can.
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Cynthia Edelberg
New member
Username: Morggan

Post Number: 10
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 11:32 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

For what my friend said, I understand that it's illegal the way casa de cambio handled the transaction, because it didn't deposit the check in an Argentine account. They just sent the check to some fiscal paradise, and gave the guy cash dollars. So in fact the check "never was" there (the guy at casa de cambio could have said "I didn't see any check. What check?"). It's like the check flew straight from NY to a fiscal paradise.
Was a win-win situation, as my friend's friend ended up getting bucks righ on the spot. Moreover, he paid a comparable low commission. I heard commisions can be much higher. And the exchange house will charge commisions two times! --dollars to pesos and the back to dollars. Because no deposit was made, he saved "one way".
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Apartmentsba.com
Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 69
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 11:47 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Just so all of you know how these casa de cambios work let me explain it to you. Officially, all money entering Argentina is supposed to go through the Central Bank. All u$s dollars are by law converted to pesos with a spread so the bank makes some money off the exchange rate. Then most purchases are in u$s dollars so the pesos must be converted back to u$s dollars. Also with a spread.

There is NO free way of getting any large sum of money in u$s dollars short of carrying it on the airplane and not declaring more than u$s 10,000 which is also illegal.

The way these exchange houses work is your money NEVER enters Argentina. You send it from your USA bank (or wherever your money is) and you send it to most likely Frankfurt, Switzerland, London or New York City in a bank account of the casa de cambio. Then they charge a commission. (Going rate these days is about 2% of the amount you are sending). They give you the amount you sent minus their commission of usually 2%.

Your money never officially entered Argentina. That's why they say it's "black". Most transactions take place this way. Really, the reason why many people including locals do it this way is not to save money but to save time. It's a real hassle going through the Central bank and it involves paperwork and time. On many complex or even easy deals, there is no time to wait for the processing of the transfer through the Central bank.

I've never heard of a casa de cambio accepting checks. Checks are NOT common in Argentina. Cash is king.
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Roberto
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Username: Admin

Post Number: 638
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 12:44 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

> I've never heard of a casa de cambio accepting checks.

Not common, but it's one of those 'who you know' things. If you happen to get paid by foreign checks for some reason, say a commision, and have developed a trusted relationship with someone in a casa de cambio, they'll take it -at a discount, of course-.
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Cynthia Edelberg
New member
Username: Morggan

Post Number: 11
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 1:02 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

1.5% or 2.0% is really no big deal. I don't think Citi Gold would give me a better deal.
As of what Saint said, that checks are not common in Argentina, well, my friend (the guy who sent money) told me that people used to work with checks all the time. They just transfer the checks from hand to hand, like cash. They just sign on the back and the check is yours, and then is passed to the next. Wired. He doesn't know whether they keep doing the same, but some years ago was everyday business. He says it was even more common than cash.
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 640
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 2:08 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

> They just transfer the checks from hand to hand, like cash.

I think many years ago legislation was passed to ban this behaviour and that only one 'endorso' was authorized for post-dated checks. Someone may know more about the present regulations.

This was common in the old days for what became known as 'cheques voladores'. I saw some myself that had been signed by 20 other people. By the time the check was ready for clearing, that last guy never saw a coin.
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elizabeth gordon
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Username: Babeth

Post Number: 5
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 9:43 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

I just tranfered over US100,000 with BNP Paribas. No casa de Cambio needed. All I needed to open the account was a CDI number and reference from my bank. THe entire transfer includung the exchange from dollar to peseos back to dollars was 1%.
I talked to Banco Patagonia and Banco Frances and there requirements were pretty similar.
CItibank needs you to already have a bank account set up as does Bank Boston (for a least 6 months and HSBC.
The annoying part is showing where the money is coming from (salary, stocks you may have sold...). They just want to make sure you are not laundering money. Every bank now asks that inclusing Banco Piano.
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craig shell
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Username: Craig

Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 3:46 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I would like to compliment you on this forum, This is my first time posting here.Yesterday I spoke to HSBC new york office, international banking division. I was told I could open up a international dollar denominated account. Witch would allow me to deposit dollars in the USA
then withdraw dollars in Argentina with no charges.
To do this one would need to satisfy two Argentine banking requirements
1.) a CDI
2.) the account would need to active for one year prior to withdrawing funds in Argentina.
dos this sound plausible or am I missing something?
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Eric Baeder
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Username: Doggieboy

Post Number: 3
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 4:01 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Craig:

You are correct, this is an excellent forum.

I can't wait for the response to your post. It's gonna be an eye opener.

Eric
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Apartmentsba.com
Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 70
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 4:11 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Do yourself a favor and do NOT listen to what the banks say in the USA as they have no clue what goes on in Argentina. NO, the information they gave you is NOT correct. HSBC in New York City has nothing to do with HSBC in Argentina. Trust me on this.
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craig shell
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Username: Craig

Post Number: 3
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 7:40 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Saint, as the "resident expert" I must defer to you knowledge on this subject.However can you explain to me how elizabeth gordon transferred $100,000 using BNP Paribas (witch I think is a bank?) and only payed 1%
for the entire transfer including the exchange from dollar to peseos back to dollars? Is the rate set by the central bank of Argentina or dos the individual bank have the desecration to charge what they like? It seams to me that if they can charge 1% instead of the standard amount they could just as easily wave the fees if they so desired?
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Apartmentsba.com
Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 71
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 7:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Craig,

I only posted that because I hear on an almost daily basis Americans emailing or calling me telling me "But Citibank/HSBC/etc told me this...... and it's NOT true". As I mentioned, the banks here are not traditional branches of their USA counterparts. Most of the people you are calling in the USA is some person that doesn't understand the laws/regulations in Argentina. Many give out false information.

Elizabeth pointed out that she paid a 1% fee which is quite good. As I mentioned, there is no "Free" way to get u$s dollars here. Your post mentioned, "they said I can withdraw dollars with NO FEES". That is not correct. As Elizabeth pointed out, she paid a 1% fee on the amount she transfered. The fee differs from bank/exchange house to bank/exchange house. Some are more competitive than others.

More banks are making it easier to open up accounts with only a CDI number because they are starting to figure out that foreigners are a good source to make money on with transfer fees, etc. They are making good money not doing really anything so it's a good business.

Yes, BNP Paribas is a bank. I've closed deals with them before in their Recoleta office. They are quite good and have a security guard at the door all the time. You ask, "could they waive the fee"? Hmm....sure...I guess. But so could a plastic surgeon doing a breast augmentation and the last time I checked..no girls I know got a freebie so expect to pay a % to get money here.

Good luck.
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Riyad Anabtawi
Member
Username: Riyada

Post Number: 67
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 8:31 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dont one have to pay income tax (IVA) on this amount(100,000US).?
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craig shell
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Username: Craig

Post Number: 4
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Saint thank you for the time you are taking to educate me on this subject. but I do not understand this red herring you keep throwing out.
" laws/regulations in Argentina" You have already conceded in your last posting that the Argentine central bank has nothing to do with what a bank charges to transfer money, ( at least above 1%)
In the case of HSBC I do not think banking policy is set in NY or BsAs
if corporate in Switzerland wants to offer a banking product for what ever reason I would think that it must be honored by there branch offices in-less it was specifically prohibited by local law?
They told me there would be no fee for withdrawing dollars. however
there would be a charge for withdrawing pasos. that would be considered an exchange. perhaps this is the misunderstanding.
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Apartmentsba.com
Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 72
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Riyad,

No, there is NO IVA tax on the amount you are sending in to purchase real estate.

Craig,

I mention laws and regulations because banks here need to follow laws set by Argentina. Legally, every u$s dollar that enters the country must be converted to pesos. All property in the Capital area is priced in u$s dollars so naturally you must convert the money both ways. From u$s dollars it gets converted to pesos and they don't do it free. Banks are in the business of charging you for services and they WILL charge you. Then to purchase your real estate you can't pay in pesos so they convert it to u$s dollars again and guess what...a fee is charged. That is why banks quote a certain % fee on the entire transaction.

A "fee' is just that. A fee. For them to say there is "no fee" to access your u$s dollars is simply not true. There is a fee in the form of the bank charging you to get u$s dollars. Let us all know if you find a bank that doesn't charge you a fee to get u$s dollars here. I buy about 2-3 properties per week so I'd sure like to find that bank.

Good luck.
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Riyad Anabtawi
Member
Username: Riyada

Post Number: 68
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 1:42 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I have one Asset Tax Question :
I am not sure when to start preparing and paying my tax assets. My assets are somewhere around 250,000 pesos. I know that one has to pay the assets tax when in excess of 100,000 pesos.
I dont as yet have my permanent residency here.. Its applied for but its taking for ever. I only have the "Precaria"
Do I still have to pay the asset tax, even though I am not a permanent residence?
Cheers
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Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 101
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 12:15 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

You can wire transfer funds from your bank account in the US to an individual account in Argentina just like anywhere else. There are bank fees. I know HSBC does have banks here and in the US and it may be cheaper to transfer interbank but it is still an international transfer.

The banks know what they can charge and they will tell you up front.

I am goint to assume that income tax is paid in Argentina on income that is earned in Argentina. But not on income earned in another country and transferred into the country.

When I am in Argentina and I want pesos I go to a bank that changes dollars to pesos and they do not charge a fee for making the exchange. And they do it based on the current exchange rate. I have done it, it may not be the same in every case, and not all banks exchange money. But I am talking about Buenos Aires province and it may be different in Patagonia or Medoza. These are provinces also with their own laws. Argentine federal law and provincial law. It is the same in the US. The laws of Florida are not exactly the same as the laws of California but Federal law is the same in both states, etc.
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Sergio
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Username: Sergio

Post Number: 2
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 22, 2006 - 10:29 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

It is very confusing indeed. I heard so far that legally you can transfer money through a bank like BNP Paribas and pay a 1% fee (reasonable). So, what is the real problem here? Apart.ba has been a very helpful in many topics but a little too confusing on this one. If my statement above is correct, this is the normal way to transfer money anywhere in the world where the currency is different than dollars. You pay a fee, in this case reasonable, and you have your account in dollars. For non residents of Argentina you have to deal with the paperwork to open bank accounts , etc. I don't understand the problem. The big issue should be , do you trust Argentina banks once the money is there. This is another thread. I am assuming the transaction through BNP Paribas goes to the central bank and is all legal.
Why do people need to go through "casas de cambio" , black transfers, etc. They charge you a fee anyway. Am I missing something here?

Elizabeth mentioned that this method requires that you show where the money comes from. For most of us, it is not a problem and most banks will require that.

Again , please correct me if I am wrong as to why would you go through a casa de cambio (risky , with fees, and it doesn’t seem much faster than a bank transfer)

I am exploring another avenue, I will open a bank account in Uruguay where banking laws are more strick regarding privacy and banks are less exposed to political problems. From Uruguay to Argentina, it is your choice to carry cash across the river or bank transfers.. For me , it is the issue of the security of the Uruguayan banks vs Argentinian banks.

Does anybody see anything wrong with this approach

Thanks to all posters for a very informative thread

Sergio
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Eugene W.
New member
Username: Ewhitlock

Post Number: 1
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 23, 2006 - 7:11 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Elizabeth, can you (1) provide additional info on which branch of BNP Paribas in Buenos Aires you used and (2) clarify if you send your funds from the BNP Paribas account in the U.S. to your separate BNP Paribas account in BA?

Did BNP happen to mention if this was a new service? It sounds MUCH better than the casa de cambios. I did the whole casa de cambio thing and found it to be unnerving (my wire was "lost" for a few days), but ultimately fine.
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elizabeth gordon
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Username: Babeth

Post Number: 6
Registered: 5-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 5:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Of course. I used the BNP Paribas downtown on Alem near Puerto Madero. All I showed was my CDI and a bank reference from my bank (in my case Wells Fargo). I had no prior bank account with BNP. Now this is the tricky part. They charge you 0.0125% to transfer the money and then the spread for changing from dollars to pesos, back in dollars. This is when you can negotiate. Banco Patagonia has a decent spread but Banco Frances for example was terrible (I think a 8 point spread)
I just created a cuenta de Ahorro that I closed a month later. Easy, straight forward.
I enjoyed working with a"normal bank" because the stress was out of the equation. My monye was transferred from my US bank acount to BNP in NYC. When I was ready for the escritura it was transfered that same day. THis means that if anything had fallen through and I had to cancel the escritura, the money could easily be sent from BNP NYC back to my bank account in the States.
The other reason I like working this way is to avoid any problems when I sell. In the last year, the Argentine goverment has been cracking down on money laundering. To bring money from the sale you need to prove your sale. If you cannot show how you got money here in the first place (like using a casa de cambio) you can get in trouble.

If you buy property from an Argentine you can also ask them what bank they use. For example, we bought a ph from owners who had a bank account at Banco Rio and we able to transfer directly to their account.

I hope this helps

-Elizabeth
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Sergio
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Username: Sergio

Post Number: 3
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 1:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Geee.. It took over 30 posts to find out that you can transfer money to Argentina like any where else in the world. Not only this, but the fact that you can do a bank transfer directly to the sellers.

Thanks Elizabeth.

Sergio
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Investor Wannabe
New member
Username: Ewhitlock

Post Number: 2
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 3:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

It took over 30 posts because the "system" in Argentina is (1) screwed up (2) not transparent and (3) constantly changing. What might be true one day or for one person, could be different on another day for a different person or even the same person. I would not be surprised if someone tried to do exactly what Elizabeth did and was told "no." Notwithstanding the high growth rates, Argentina is not rife with economic problems and governmental mismanagement for no reason.
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Apartmentsba.com
Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 88
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 3:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Investor Wannabe is 100% ABSOLUTELY correct! All of you need to take everything you read with a grain of salt. Making financial transactions in Argentina is not as simple as just reading something on an internet message board and concluding that it will be the same for everyone.

What Investor Wannabe posted is exactly correct. For as much as I love Argentina, doing business here is extremely difficult. the system is broken here. NOTHING is transparent, lots of "shades of grey" and as he /she mentioned it's constantly changing. You can maybe go to the same bank and talk to someone else and the rules can be totally different. Heck, you can go and talk to the same person the next day and things could be different.

Rules are different from banks to banks and branches to branches. Contrary to what some of you may think or hear, things are not easy when moving money to Argentina. Some banks/branches involves a mountain of paperwork. Elizabeth (luckily had a very easy time) but that isn't usually the case with many banks. Some banks ask you to provide documents that take a lot of time to get.

Never forget that Argentina is ranked as one of the most corrupt countries in the WORLD. http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/survey s_indices/cpi/2005

Look at where it consistently places year after year. It's worse than many African nations. Look at the recent 2005 index that came out recently. Argentina is below ALGERIA!! Do you know how much corruption there is in Algeria?? To think, Argentina is worse.

Trust me. The majority of those purchasing property in Argentina don't go through the "white" way and didn't go through the "white way" for a reason. It certainly isn't because they are money launderers. It was because the system made it too difficult to get their money here.

Use common sense when looking at all of this. People buying real estate would much prefer to do things the right way and bring money in the safest and most convenient way possible. The people using methods other than official banks used these methods for a number of reasons including to get the deal closed in a reasonable amount of time. Many times when you make an offer, the seller requires that a portion of the funds (boleto) be done a certain # of days after the offer is accepted. Most banks do not allow you to open an account without a DNI number. Keep in mind several years ago and even last year it was impossible at almost every bank including BNP. Laws change, banks change, systems change.

To give you an idea, I called another BNP Paribas and they confirmed they could open an account with a CDI number but then the manager said that you had to have a verifiable local address with your name on a utility bill. This is to only give you an idea that nothing here is as easy as it might seem coming here on vacation as a tourist and doing things as a business or living here.

Argentina is a wonderful place but there is a reason why it has so much turmoil. In my opinion, AFIP is making serious mistakes with outside foreigners and investors making things so complicated. It's been my experience that one of the ONLY groups of people that are paying taxes as they properly should are foreigners. The locals are masters at tax evasion.

So, to summarize, Investor Wannabe is completely correct. Things change and hopefully they will change for the better regarding financial transactions...

Good luck all.
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Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 130
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 6:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

An Argentine friend of mine showed a beautiful Estancia in south Buenos Aires province. He wants to buy it with the help of investors.
I am interested in participating.
The ranch is just too much to describe but if you go to my web site you can see it on the Estancia page.

http://www.argentinahunting.4t.com

You will have to copy and post the address in your address bar to get to the site.

The investor gourp will be 14 and the cost per person will be 65k.

I will be putting more photos on the site in the next day or so.
Even if you are not interested you will see a beautiful farm. My friend tells me it is the best one in Ar that is for sale. Not the best of all, but the best "for sale".

I can tell you it is a magnificent Estancia.
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Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 132
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 6:50 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I have sent money by Western Union to Argentina many times. But the amounts are small, a thousand dollars or less. I do not know if they transfer more or not. Never tried.
I have never had any problems. The reciepent is in a small town 650 kilometers south of Bs As. The money is picked up at the post office next day, no same day service there.
But I am tolc it can be if it is sent to Buenos Aires city.
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Apartmentsba.com
Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 89
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 6:57 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Tom,

You can use Western Union in almost every city in the world these days. I've used it to send relative small amounts (less than u$s 1,000) to dozens of countries. It's fast, dependable and trustworthy. The only thing it isn't is cheap. It makes sense for small amounts of money but for purchases of real estate or anything else that requires larger amounts of money it's not a good idea as the fees are too high.
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Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 135
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 7:13 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yes Apt, for small amounts it is good. And not so expensive if you chose the next day option, again we are talking small amounts from the US to Argentina. Other countries are different prices.
I think the we do it, transfers for r/e purchases is best, wire transfer the money from the buyer to the seller at the closing.
The Estancia investment I am working on we will use a real estate attorney in Orlando to accept the money from the investors. The attorney puts the money in interest bearing trust accounts pending the sale. This is done so that if we do not reach our investment goal, the money can be returned to the investor with interest.
Once we have the entire amount of the down payment we will wire transfer the money to the sellers bank when we close along with the borrowed funds.
We are investing ten percent and borrowing the remainder.
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Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 138
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 12:29 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

My recommendation to anyone buying porperty in Argentina is to find a reputable real estate agent who knows which banks give the best rates on money transfers.
I have three different real estate agents all of whom are reputable and know their job.
They agree the best way to do the transaction is to follow the law, pay the taxes and live happily ever after.
But we tend to deal in large dollar transactions. Maybe if you are buying a ten thousand dollar casa it might be ok to do it differently.
But, it has been my experience that when one cuts corners they often walk away with scars.
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Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 139
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 12:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I have my web site updated for anyone interested in the joint venture of the purchase of the Estancia.

http://www.argentinahunting.4t.com

I have had phone calls from several of the posters here. Thanks for your interest.
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Apartmentsba.com
Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 90
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 12:45 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Just my humble opinion on "joint ventures". I'm not saying they are a bad idea because they are certainly not and they make sense for many people. Just know all the details before buying. I'm seeing many websites sprouting up offering REIT type deals or partnerships. Just know that things can get complicated with real estate, you might want to cash out, your exit strategy could change. I've purchased real estate for partnership groups and I can tell you several times fights develop with husbands/wifes, sisters/brothers, etc.

Imagine buying with complete strangers. My advice is to always take the less complicated route if possible and purchase real estate on your own if you can afford it. I've purchased real estate with partners before but know that things can and do get complicated when you partner sometimes.

Good luck all.
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Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 142
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 1:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I agree somewhat Apt.
It is a generally held belief that going into business with family is one of the worst things a person can do. I do not recommend it.

When investing money in the amounts I am talking about anyone would be asking for trouble if they went into it blindly. A clearly laid out contract is the only way to go, one that has been reviewed by the investors attorney. People who can afford to go into joint ventures usually have some intelligence, a gross understatement indeed.

Having practiced law in Florida, home of the nightmare land deal, I know that if you do not plan for the worst case scenerio you are making a mistake. That's why I govern myself accordingly.

There is strength in numbers. I have never gone into a land deal with anyone who has lost money. I don't plan to change that now. Argentina is tough, come on down to Florida and let's compare notes.

One thing that seems to stand out about investing in real estate in Argentina or anywhere for that matter, if you play by the rules, that means actually knowing the rules even if they may not seem kosher all the time, you can make money. Land owners, at least it appears to me, seem to run Ar and always have.

Foreigners buying land in Argentina, statistics show that way less than 3% of the population was personally or his ancestors were not foreigners at one time.

One reason I partner with an Argentine on all my land deals. They know the rules and they know the people who make the rules. Kerschner and Solar are names I here quite often from their friends.

Maybe, well not maybe, I know I have been blessed.
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Apartmentsba.com
Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 91
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 4:39 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Tom,

Again, I'm not saying that partnering is a bad thing or a bad idea. I'm just saying that things get more complicated sometimes when you have partners. It's different on the type of project that you are talking about. It's also different on bigger projects like hotels, land, bigger projects. I'm talking about things like apartments and smaller projects.

I agree that real estate is the safest investment in Argentina. It's the reason why so many wealthy locals own it. It's one of the only "real investments" here. Yes, you are right about the real estate owners here running things. Look at most of the wealthy (including politicians here in Argentina and you'll see almost all of them own real estate portfolios)...oh and guess what....most of them are renting them out and making cash flow on it.

My point is to think about exit strategies when going on with a partner. Especially when it's on smaller projects like an apartment. Iron out issues such as what happens if one wants to sell and one doesn't want to sell, how much personal time you might be able to use it, and other obvious issues.

Take care.
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Tom Woodson
Intermediate Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 148
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I agree.

The estancia deal is a long term thing for me, I want to pass it along to my grandchildren which is something that must be addressed, rights of survivorship, etc.
And if a partner wants to pull out a right of first refusal.
When it is in writing using the plain language doctrine you do not have to depend on differing memories.
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Apartmentsba.com
Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 95
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 3:23 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Also, remember on any real estate deals (especially those involving partnerships). You MUST have a last will and testament here in Argentina. They don't respect wills from the USA. Make sure if you are buying property here you talk to a lawyer here and make a last will and testament here. There are certain people you can't exclude like your spouse and kids. Many people purchase here forgetting some details like this or other details like purchasing home owner's insurance.

In the USA, everyone has mortgages and the banks REQUIRE you to insure your house/apartment. Here all the foreigners pay cash so most forget to purchase home owner's insurance. Fires here are rare but you still don't want to forget details like this when purchasing/investing here. Always protect your investment as best you can.

Good luck.
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Cynthia Edelberg
New member
Username: Morggan

Post Number: 18
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 4:49 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi,
I heard testaments or wills have no value whatsoever in Argentina. I was told that law regulates what the children will inherit. Like, if father dies, then mother inherits 50% and children get the other 50% (so if there are two children, each will receive 25%)
No will can change what this law has stated long time ago.
Am I right or am missing something?
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Riyad Anabtawi
Member
Username: Riyada

Post Number: 91
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 5:03 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

You might be right Cynthia, for this land has no rule of law.
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Apartmentsba.com
Intermediate Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 104
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 5:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Well...talk to a lawyer....it's true you can't cut your spouse or kids out of certain assets. I know for real estate you can't cut your spouse out of the will. Very very complicated here. I'm doing my last will and testament and fortunately I'm not married and don't have kids. (YET).

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