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Bob Frassinetti
New member
Username: Frassinetti

Post Number: 16
Registered: 1-2005
Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Building Real Estate Investment for Collectors & Collectibles. Investment with a future………


It often comes to my mind that life’s all about taking pleasure in the things you do. I’m an art & antique dealer, a collector in my own way. It comes from my heart, it’s an inner impulse. I enjoy very much a great item, interesting crafting, and the uniqueness in the things I own. I have collected items even before I was a dealer; all sort of interesting things that caught my eye. When I was a child, these actions of mine were referred as hobbies, now; I’m a collector, into collectibles. I don’t mind labels.

Recently I got hold of an article about investing in collectibles. An enlightening article. That pointed to different approaches to this way of investment. Throughout the article the author approached the pros and cons of investing in collectibles, the sales profits, the losses throughout time and the low return of your investment… It’s obvious; an item goes a long way before it’s appreciated as an antique or vintage item. For example, Christie’s –the famous British auction house- has just recently begun to auction 1970s vintage items. So, you can figure out how long you’ll have to wait…

To us, collectors’, waiting isn’t a problem, and our collectibles are not just mere money investments of which we’re expecting a monetary return soon. Most of our returns are passionate feelings awaked by the beauty of the item we’ve acquired; non tangible profits are one of the best possible returns for a collector. The exact moment in which you spot the object of your affection, when you point it out from the crowd and decide it has to be yours, has no price.

Collectibles go all the way from toys to scholar items, from stamps to sculptures, art pieces, vintage trains and antique cars…

Indeed, our collectibles are investments. Of course these items can be bought and sold over and over, and in each transaction we can make some extra money. But investing in collectibles is not just about the money, and anyone who’s a collector knows what I’m talking about.

We, collectors, invest our time and money not just in the purchase of the item in question but also in its conservation and also in its background history.

Investing in collectibles is exiting and interesting. But I don’t think we look at this “investment” in monetary terms, at least not the whole of it. I think collectors are natural investors that consider the economical side as much as the emotional and non tangible ones.

I’m thinking that at this moment in time marching my 2 pet projects together, The Buenos Aires Toy Museum and “artdealer.com.ar” could be developed into a profitable Real Estate holding investment, thought by collectors for fellow collectors.

The idea is simple, it would consist of purchasing a property in one of Buenos Aires most exclusive areas and developing a boutique-museum lodging. A special location for collectors from all over the world who appreciate Argentinean made items –from vintage toys to art-, customized rooms exhibiting one of a kind collectibles, special experts on Argentinean collectibles arranging antique hunts to unknown and valuable markets within Buenos Aires, are just some of this investment’s attractive features. In terms of investments, Argentinean Real Estates is one of the most profitable ventures at the moment offering US Dollar gains and profits not in “pesos”.


At this moment it’s just an idea, which I’m developing. I’ll follow up on this idea, soon as I have some more spare time. Bob Frassinetti

image/bmpBuenos Aires with a view
BA from the River Plate.bmp (921.7 k)
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 446
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 2:44 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

This is such a great project, Bob!

I once knew a person who collected anything from old signs to scales and fans from the 50's. One day, after his collection of vintage items grew large enough, he made a public exhibit of all the unusual artifacts. This was in Oxford, Mississippi. It was awesome. What was appealing was the fact that he made us go back in time and experience things we had sadly forgotten. I have great appreaciation for things of the past and anything that has "history and meaning" attached to it. Newer objects can't have this, by their own essence. Hope you find the right investors...
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Jose Nunez
New member
Username: Jose

Post Number: 1
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 12:07 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Roberto
I have a ?
Is it true that people can just move into some ones empty home and the owner cant make them move out. If this is the case how would I be able to buy an investment home and still not lose it to this type of invation
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 496
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 1:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Jose, welcome! This should be answered by a lawyer, really. I just don't know.

In my laymen view, if you own a property and it is protected (say, locked) and someone trespasses it, then there is probably a clear, straightforward procedure to handle this. On the other hand if the property hadn't been protected enough, like a piece of land somewhere where somebody else builds something, then this could be more of problem. Personal experiences regarding the latter -illegally occupied property- ended up in the courts.

Property unjustly occupied by a tenant may also go to trial. What is important to know, in any case, is that the judiciary system in Argentina is quite different than the one in the US. For one, it is based in civil law as opposed to the american based in english common law, so the surpreme court doesn't interpret law based on jurisprudence. It is more of a black and white thing (someone correct me if this is wrong). Another thing to bear in mind is that trials take f-o-r-e-v-e-r. FOREVER!

1. Most owners who are unable to manage their property themselves, delegate this responsibility on a broker (perhaps a real estate agent). This is a *safe* bet, provided you get the right guy.

2. Seeking expert advice from a lawyer is essential. Hire a good lawyer that understands the system before investing!
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 497
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 1:11 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

An article on the differences between english common law and civil law here
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Apartmentsba.com
Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 64
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 1:31 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Roberto is right on call as usual. Basically if someone breaks into your home and occupies it you can get them out. Obviously there would be no contract or proof that they had a right to be in your property. I have seen cases of this. Keep in mind that most affluent (including politicians) own property here and most of them are renting them out. Some politicians own MANY properties since they are able to pick them up CHEAP at auctions or foreclosures that only they and their close friends know about. Keep in mind they will generally do things or act in a way that is in the best interests of property owners in general.

What I mean by that is they would act in a way if their own property was involved. What would they do? Obviously if someone broke in you could get them out.

Roberto is 100% right on target. The laws here are much different than in the USA. The legal system is different and things take FOREVER as Roberto mentioned. The best thing to do is use expert consultants or lawyers to help you structure and operate. If you won't be living here, make sure you have a competent and respected person or company to look after your property. This is VERY important.

You will find that people aren't so anxious to sue like in the USA. The reason why is even if you wanted to sue someone, it would take years before it even went to court and most people don't have the patience so what they usually do is just send a carta documento and both sides work something out fully aware that legal action for both sides isn't really a viable option.

You will find it's VERY difficult to rent here without a guarantor. Basically someone that owns property that will put their property up to basically "co-sign" for you in case you stop paying. What you are thinking about Jose is if you rent legally to someone and they stop paying you can't just kick them out. It can take 2-3 years in court to get them out. That's why most locals don't rent without a guarantor from someone that owns property here. If you stop paying your guarantor must pay or he/she faces problems on their title when they go to sell their property. They can't sell it until the matter is cleared up.

I've been a guarantor several times since I own many properties. I only do it for VERY close friends. I can honestly tell you that it's easier and quicker to buy a million u$s apartment than to rent an apartment. What I mean is that the contract reading and closing was faster buying a u$s 1 million apartment vs. co-signing for one of my good friends apartment rental contract for an 800 pesos a month apartment. The apartment rental contract was longer than the closing of the apartment PURCHASE.

It's for this reason I never rent to local Argentines. I only rent my properties out to foreigners (mainly Americans, UK, Canadian, Australians). I don't rent to locals to avoid this possible conflict.

You have to really understand the intricicies of the laws here. I took about 2 years before I moved here to study them. Even now, I have several lawyers on retainer and I talk to each of them almost daily.

Listen to Roberto's advice. Your first step is to use experts consultants and lawyers when dealing with business here in Argentina.

Good luck!

Mike

PS I know one local owner that had someone break in since he was away from his property for months at a time (he lived in Europe). He told me that the person threatened to try to stay in the house via the court system. I don't know if this is true or not but I assume so because this guy is a big shot businessman here. He told me he just send 5 guys with baseball bats and told the squatter that this was the court system if he didn't leave. Needless to say, the squatter left with no court action. Like I said....this isn't the USA....
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 498
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 5:04 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

> He told me he just send 5 guys with baseball bats and told the squatter that this was the court system if he didn't leave.

LOL

Just a vignette...
Around the end of Peron's second term, we rented out one of our apartments. Due to Peron's laws protecting tenants we could not raise this person's rent neither we could evict him. Decades later and after a lenghty trial we finally got him out. By the time this happened, he was paying us for his rent in COINS!!!! And this was his yearly rent. This is a true story.

This comes as a result of not only Peron's but many governments trying to protect *the people*. It happens that good intentions ended up functioning in the most perversed manner. Bottom line is, investing is OK and profitable but do a thorough DD (due diligence) and hire the right people. Argentines do make money and are in business, so there must be a way around all this without having to hire your private baseball team.
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Apartmentsba.com
Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 66
Registered: 5-2005
Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 6:48 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yes, many of the laws here in Argentina are geared to protect the people. I know several people that thought they would be nice and rent to friends or friends of friends with OUT a guarantor and some of them got cheated. I know one person that rented to someone and the tenant he rented to (friend of friend) stopped paying rent and he had to wait 2 years to get him out. By the time he got his place it was really destroyed on the inside.

The key thing is to really protect yourself before renting to someone. There is a big difference between some squatter breaking in and establishing a rent with someone via a contract. Once you rent to someone as Roberto mentioned, typically it's impossible to raise the rent (unless it's clearly specified in writing in the contract). Most legal residential rental contracts are for 2 year terms.

As Roberto mentioned, do a LOT of due diligence before getting involved with real estate here. Argentina is NOT like most countries. It can be very difficult here. I could write a book with all the experiences I encounter on a daily basis here. Most people wouldn't believe the stories but I have the proof to back it up.....

I love the country but some of the way business is done here is almost criminal.....
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Jose Nunez
New member
Username: Jose

Post Number: 2
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 8:01 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks for the info.
My wife and I are thinking of moving to B.A. in about 5 years.
The only thing I know is what I remember from a trip a took 13 years ago with my father. He gos every year to viset his friends. He as an argentine has the art of exaggerating down cold. HE come back telling me a big house on the beach cost about 70,000 U$S. So I started loking at homes, I did noy see any that cheep, but I did see some that I would like to buy and hold till I get there. Im very intrested in the Beccar area. What would you say that area is like?

thank you so much for the insight.
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movingtoargentina.typepad.com
New member
Username: Sapphos

Post Number: 24
Registered: 2-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 04, 2006 - 10:02 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Jose,
Beccar is in the nortern suburbs, one of the wealthiest suburbs outside of the acutal city limits of BA. Beccar is actually a part of San Isidro as is Acassuso where we currently live. It's an area full of expats, embassy people, and wealthier Argentines, although there are certainly plenty of lower middle-class as well. Beccar is not a very big area per se. Did you have a reason for Beccar in particular? If you are looking for the northern suburbs you can consider all of the area including Beccar, San Isidro, Punta Chica, San Fernando, Martinez, La Lucila.

If you're looking to buy a property and hold onto it, you might do well if you buy one in decent shape and then rent it long term to an expat or embassy person which is what happens with most house rentals here. But, the house will need to be in decent shape or you will have to get it there to have it fly in that market. Also, if you rent it you will need to have someone here to manage it for you.

As I said, we currently live in Acassuso, but we chose not to buy in the area. We rented a house first so we could see which areas we liked the best, but we wouldn't necessarily buy here, there are other areas we would invest in first.

Incidentally, there was mention of guarantias. More and more people taking prepaid rent instead of guarantias. This is what we had to do as we didn't have the guaratia in the beginning. However, when our rent comes due next fall we will probably use our guarantia instead.

Laura
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Bob Frassinetti
Member
Username: Frassinetti

Post Number: 72
Registered: 1-2005


Posted on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 - 11:01 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello Art and Toy Collectors,

The Buenos Aires Toy Museum is an integral cultural project that was born over 14 years ago. Bob Frassinetti has been ever since, his alma mater and inventor.

Thanks to the now globalize world, provided by the Internet, we have been able to build the first virtual Toy Museum of Argentina. All we had at that point was our will to share the amazing world of toys and games we were discovering at the time. Argentine toys of all times, the stories behind them, the stories they had been part of, were coming back to life every time we found a new item in a toy-shop, fair or market.

Back then, Bob was mainly working as an art and antiques dealer. His son Christian was only 5, and the thought of developing an idea, a place, in which they could have fun, enjoy a moment and grow together, began to grow stronger in him. At one point, one of the father-son weekends, they were walking thru a flea market, and they bumped into a wonderfully crafted antique toy. To Bob's surprise, they both were touched and amazed by the item. He bought the item and they both played together for hours. Vintage toys were the answer! That was how the project of the Buenos Aires Toy Museum began.

During its early days, the museum was both an excuse for quality parenting time as well as thorough hunt for antique toys and games of all times made or found in Argentina.

What had began as an anecdotic finding was soon followed by many others. The individual findings began to come together as a truly interesting collection, large, top quality and very amusing.

Each finding brought along a story together with the item... It soon appeared clear that vintage toys were much more than antiques. These were design items, they expressed in their motives, shapes, colors and technology a specific cultural moment, a moment in history. This was an amazing discovery and Bob, so fond of his collection and museum project, gathered together a team of enthusiastic social sciences students to work with him in the development of the museum. The BA Toy Museum was recovering wonderful toys from the pass of time and from the darkness of oblivion, while at the same time it was working on a broader research and cultural project that aimed to reconstruct their history and story in the Argentine society.

The online museum in which the items were shown and exhibited began to work also as an online specialized site for antique toy lovers, were we published research works and papers, as well as interviews and insightful information on the history and stories those toys had brought to our attention. This was an important turning point in the Museum's history, for we discovered a whole new meaning for those wonderful toys and games as we unveiled their history.

Our development in terms of private collection and research work is growing even today.

We're pioneers in this field in Argentina and in many ways in Latin America as well. The international collector's community has not only recognized our work thru emails and phone calls, but also by means of specialized publications, online and paper magazines, articles and interviews in United States, England, France and Italy. In Argentina, several of the most prestigious local news papers such as La Nacion, Clarin, InfoBAE and La Razon have interviewed Bob, local radio shows and TV shows also have worked together with us, in recent years.

At the moment we're working on a going 3D and this being the first step before building, yes, the Real Bs As Art and Toy Museum Gallery Project, will be turning into real bricks and mortar, so be forewarned, it might just be a good chance to come on in with Bob and be one of the founding Members of this Real Estate Project.

The Buenos Aires Toy Museum has developed until now with no financial aid of any sort. We love what we do, and that's why we've come so far.

But this next step is a Big one for us alone,……..

We're always aiming for more, and that's why our goal for this year is to finally have a real show room in which the Museum and our Real Estate Project can be sold to investors, locally and international……. our exhibitions, lectures and special events for the local and international collectors community, toy lovers, enthusiast and curious visitors.

See the Ideas we have, …….. http://www.flickr.com/photos/frassinetti/sets/7215 7602497659663/



Meantime, ...............

Read daily Up Dates on Art and Antiques for Buenos Aires, Argentina http://www.frassinetti.biz
Argentina also exports antiques over 100 years old with the help of Bob Frassinetti Read all about the South of South America, Argentina, Chile and Uruguay on this link.

Updated and new web site, The Buenos Aires Toy Museum, Argentina

Chat some more soon, ................................ Bob Frassinetti.

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