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luciano pereira
Junior Member
Username: Luciano

Post Number: 33
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 11:43 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi all, I really have a great bussiness proposal. 9 (8 to go) Flats in Pinamar (half block from the sea you can see the sea from it) and four blocks from town centre (center for american fellows) 40m2 (430 and a 1/2 ft2).

Each flat is u$s20.000, If you put it to rent you can get an estimate of u$s5000 p/year wich is a great ROI IMHO.

Even if you are thinking in going from vacation is a good opportunity.

The man who builded them wants to sell the 9 flats at once (u$s180. 000), i want one flat for myself and want partners for this.

As a lawyer i will give all my knowledge to avoid red tape and helping any other investor to have a crystal clear transaction.


I wait for comments. For further information contact me at luciano(at)revista365(dot)com(dot)ar
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1370
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 3:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Luciano, this sounds like a nice deal. But the apartments are a bit smallish. Are these studios? Can you tell us more about:

the apartments themsleves (or pics).
yearly taxes
yearly maintenance fees
parking space?
any other restrictions for the condo (no pets, babies, etc)

Thanks.
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luciano pereira
Junior Member
Username: Luciano

Post Number: 34
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 4:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dear Roberto I am going to answer the best i can:


Are these studios? Can you tell us more about:
There are all studios some have a small backyard some not.

the apartments themsleves (or pics).
I am in Buenos Aires i promess pics and map location by monday tuesday

yearly taxes

This is great, the idea of being smallish is that are half block from the sea so is more like a kind of quiet beach place all taxes are payed by m2 so have really unexpensive taxes, i promise exact figures by monday but for giving an example on how unexpensive is pinamar for living compared with buenos aires some examples: (by the way tourists are charged a lot for rent)

Services:

Telephone per year - flat rate unlimited local calls -: $240 (pesos!)

Direct.Tv (satellite tv i think is called in other places): $600 pesos per year .This is just individual contract charge if the condo get the service is even less.

parking space?

on entrace is a grass place non private but is far easy and secure to park in entrance


yearly maintenance fees and any other restrictions for the condo (no pets, babies, etc)

What i find most exciting about this deal among the price is that new owners has the possibility to define our own 'code of conduct', what we are going to do with common places and ammenities of the building. This is certain something to talk about but my main goal is to have the apartment for rental, with a bit of "team spirit" we can create the sinergy needed to add value to our flats and charge more. For instance buy a couple of deckchairs and things like that.


To be 100% honest with you and in order to fully explain the nature of the operation, maintenance fees and other restrictions i need to do a kind of long remark:

Here is the 'small catch' and the reason for a 33% off

a) The market price for an apartment like this is at least u$s30.000, the builder is going to move abroad and want to sell it right the spot and is a bit short in cash, the units need some paint job and other minor details included in the price, at the time when we are signing for the purchase the builder, or a third company with the approval of the owners sign a contract for doing this job. For me is ok waiting two/three weeks for have the flat paint and have that kind of profit. Some people don't think the same that's why i tell you.

b) As the builder is a bit short of money, he still don't do some paperwork needed to legally treat each apartment as 'separate units' that's why all buyers we are going to sign a contract giving our concent to 'separate' the units. In practical terms in the worst case this take a couple of months and have any practical difference while it's happen. I'm a lawyer and i could easily do it, i am not going to charge for it, instead i only want the commitment that every owner is going to pay in equal parts with me for intance the paint of common areas every x years, etc.

My main interest is to protect my investment and i am a team player i always want to have a good relationship with other owners. Instead of having to pay a mortage i prefer to buy one or two flats with others that share more or less the same vision that i have and when i show them that is a really good investment, do the same in other place, etc.

By the way i can also free of charge take care of the rental.
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luciano pereira
Junior Member
Username: Luciano

Post Number: 35
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 4:32 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

By the way this is a bit off topic, but i always open to any remarks and advises to improve my english.

How I Write? Please CALL 0-800-ME-TARZAN
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Apartmentsba.com
Intermediate Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 233
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 5:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Luciano,

You mentioned you are an attorney so I assume you understand the pitfalls of buying a property or even putting money down on "separate units" when they aren't separate units. I do a LOT of real estate deals in Argentina (mostly Buenos Aires) but I've purchased in other cities in Argentina as well.

Typically I've found that when a property has a big discount relative to the market there are usually reasons for this. Not always but more times then not there are reasons why the owner sells something at a fire sale price. I am NOT saying that is the case with this deal but you mentioned in your (b) that "the owner didn't do some paperwork that is needed to legally treat each unit as a separate unit".

Now I know you are saying it could take a couple of months but you know what? I've seen and done alot in the real estate world here in Argentina and there is one thing I'm sure of. There is a LOT of red tape here in Argentina and things can take forever. So your speculation of "a couple of months" could turn out to take longer. If the "paperwork" isn't done it means that each unit does NOT have a separate title deed. All the units sound like they are lumped together. This is NOT ideal for investors to pool together to buy together unless you personally know all the investors. Why? Because if there is a dispute later it could cause a lot of problems and possibly you have the chance that the units won't each get a separate title deed.

I work with a whole team of lawyers and many of them are from the top law firms in town. Sometimes seemingly easy issues take forever so I think investors need to keep that in mind in this sort of deal.

Not to say this is a bad deal at all but I think people need to understand everything when investing in real estate in South America. Most ethical and skilled escribanos won't advise their clients to purchase until the units are legally separated and have their own title deed before putting any money in.

Would the owner agree to having a third party (like the Escribano handling the sale) hold the money in trust and wait to release the funds until the paperwork is all done?

Some other questions from an investor standpoint.

- You mentioned 9 units. Are these units in a multiple floor building? If so, how many floors in the building?

- When was this built?

- Is there only one owner of the property or is it a group? Is the owner a corporation?

- Does the property have any liens, encumbrances or mortgages on the property that need to be paid off first?

- Will the seller be willing to list the full price of the transaction on the title deeds?

- You mentioned that the units aren't broken up into individual title deeds. How many sq. meters (covered and uncovered) are listed on the current title deed? How will outdoor areas be broken down on the title deeds? Shared common outdoor areas?

- Also, although you are a lawyer it would be better for investors to have their own legal counsel and Escribano so they can ensure they have THEIR best interests protected. Are you willing to allow each investor to use his/her own Escribano on the closing?

- Do you have to-scale floor plans for each unit? Is each unit identical? If not, which are better units? Does one have an advantage over another? If so, who gets to choose which unit they get?

- Is the area zoned residential only or commercial or residential/commercial?

- What else is on that block? Is it all residential? Is there empty land in that area that can be built on or any buildings that can be built that will block the ocean view? That to me seems to be a huge advantage but is there a possibility the view could be blocked or partially blocked?

- Is there a realtor fee? I assume not since you are pooling investors together.

- Is there a stamp tax or will it be waived?

- Again, can the owner wait to get the boleto or the full payment until all the paperwork is done to divide out the title deeds for each property?

- Is there a pool or room to build a pool?

- You mentioned potential cash flow from the unit via rentals. What is the average typical weekly rent in Pinamar during high season? Also, do you plan to have one property manager for all the units or is every man/investor for himself to rent it out? If there is one property manager, how will the rentals get divided between 9 units? what will be the deciding factor whose units are rented first? What will the property manager fee be? Will he/she pay the monthly bills as almost all the investors will NOT live in Pinamar? If so, what is their monthly fee?

- Will the building have a doorman? Is there security? What common expenses do you estimate per month?

- Is the area easily able to get ALL utilities including phone service, cable service, high speed internet, cellphone coverage, water, electricity, gas?

- What is the heating and water system? Is it central hot water or individual hot water? Heating central or individual?

- Do you have a Google Satellite map of the location?

- Do you have a spreadsheet with all the expenses and closing costs including legal fees, taxes, closing costs, possible stamp taxes?

- Do you have an estimated net rate of return spreadsheet on the cash flow potential via rentals including all monthly expenses including cable, internet, phone, electricity, gas, condo fees, shared expenses (including gardener)?

These are just some of the many questions I'd have before investing in a project. I could be interested but I'd have concerns on the paperwork not being proper. That is a big red flag when I buy real estate.

You mentioned alot of the positives of the deal but you didn't mention many negatives.

What are the top 5 positives of this deal?

What are the top 5 NEGATIVE things about this property in your eyes? (besides the title deeds aren't individually separated).

Cheers.
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Tom
Advanced Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 453
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 6:16 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

This sounds like a good deal.

I have 10K I could use if someone wanted to buy an apt with Me.

Being a lawyer I realize that most of Apts questions would have to be answered before any purchase is made.

I do know this, Pinamar is a beautiful little place with possibly the best beach in Argentina.
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Tom
Advanced Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 454
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 6:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hey Apts

Other than showing how brilliant you are how many of these questions do you think Luciano knows right off the top of his head.
Any sale of land in Argentina I have heard of has to have an
Escribano to do the paperwork and it is his duty to make sure there are no encumberances on the property.
Zoning laws? Most officials in small towns in Argentina don't know what a zoning law is.

Will the building have a doorman? Are you kidding me?

Is there security? Yes, it's called policia.

Does it have a view of the ocean. Anybody who cares about that probably should not get into this deal. My first thought was who cares. There are only a few million people out there who can afford to do this deal who would be interested in this property whether it has a view of the ocean or not. I am raising my hand here.

Most of your questions are a bit much don't you think.

Some are self answering. Anybody involved would be entitle to have their own attorney. A no brainer.

We are not talking about a multimillon dollar deal. Yes, be cautious and get the questions answered but don't shoot the messenger.

Some of your questions need to be answered before money changes hands. But not all of them for me to be in. It sounds like our friend has found a good deal, not uncommon in Argentina. If I am sounding a bit sarcastic, I apologize, but why should this man have to answer all the questions until he finds out if anyone is interested. He wants to have a place close to the ocean in Pinamar. If Pinamar were on the same type beach in the US, we would be talking several hundred thousand dollars if not more.

You ever heard the term, Location, Location, Location.
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Apartmentsba.com
Intermediate Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 234
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 7:15 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tom,

I didn't post to "show how brilliant I am". Really that has NOTHING to do with it. Those questions are fundamental and basic questions for any real estate investment.

Most people that buy real estate are investors and yes asking if a building will have a doorman and if they will have security DO matter as those are monthly expenses and affect rate of return. In some developments the charge for a doorman and security are expensive so YES it does matter.

Yes, it matters if it has an ocean view and if it's a rental property that IS a big deal. An ocean view is something that is key for marketing a vacation rental property. No, I don't think those questions "are a bit much". Really they are basic questions that Luciano I'm sure can easily answer.

No, we aren't talking about a multimillion dollar deal but then again, the fundamentals shouldn't really change whether you are talking about $10,000 or $1 million. Due diligence should be done no matter how much you are investing. That is common sense.

Why should he answer these questions? Because when you come on to a public message board and solicit money for an investment than you should be able to answer these BASIC questions.

Yes, I know all about location, location, location. Have you heard about due diligence, due diligence and due diligence? I'm not the one posting things like "I have 10k..anyone want to split an apartment with me".

Again, the amount you are investing shouldn't really matter. You should ask the same questions I asked whether you are investing $10,000 or $1 million. And if you aren't, you're a fool. (are you really an attorney???). Investing is investing and gambling is gambling....

There might be a few million people that can afford an affordable investment like this but then again there were a few million people that also invested in real estate in the USA and didn't really understand what they were getting themselves into so yes, these simple and basic questions I threw out there are really simple and ANY investor in this or any similar project would need to have these answers. If you think these are not basic questions then I really question your judgment as an investor. Who is "shooting the messenger"? Certainly not me. I'm not even saying this is a bad investment. All I'm asking are basic questions. Again, when you come on a public message board speaking of a great investment potential and soliciting funds from strangers than ALL of these questions will be easily answered and guess what? If he can answer them and all of them make sense then he will easily get the investors needed for this.

Good luck.
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WTMendoza.com
Junior Member
Username: Welcometomendoza

Post Number: 50
Registered: 7-2007


Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 7:16 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Tom, with all due respect for Luciano, whom I've ineracted with on his web knowledge, and is a great and earnst guy, ABA puts out important basic questions, epecially since this particular deal is a little weak with apt size, builder financial woes, and lack of key information yet.

Even if the offering is not completly solid yet since still being put together, ABA has probably already helped with the cause with the right kind of questions which even in US and Europe and rest of world will come back to haunt a buyer and a seller if they don't understand specifically what is being offered and the options for follow through..cheers
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1371
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 7:23 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I actually liked some of Mike's questions. I would have never thought of these issues. I would like to see some of his questions answered before I consider this any further. Although I agree with Tom that the security questions may have less weight in a property like this, Mike's legal concerns need to be addressed. I also think it is important to be able to determine the surroundings and how future projects may or may not impact this property.

My main problem is that such small units would only be suitable for young crowds during summer time and we all know how the apartments will look like by March... unless young couples.
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Apartmentsba.com
Intermediate Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 235
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Roberto,

I wasn't asking about security as I'm concerned about security issues...i was asking from a monthly fee point of view. Some areas security guards in the block or development have a high monthly fee so that is why I asked it.

Sometimes investors get confused because they see a cheap/affordable fee for the property but they don't consider ALL the monthly fees and it's VERY important to consider ALL fees involved including utilities and any other type of common fees from the owners of the development.

So that is why I asked about security NOT from a safety standpoint but a financial fee each month. Cheers.
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Tom
Advanced Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 455
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 7:35 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

A lot of questions have to be answered.

I am not concerned about the young crowd. I remember my fraternity days. Enough said about that.

My point is someone with Apts questions and his expertise I am sure he knows that if he is really interested in the deal they will be answered.

There is only one person in the world I would hand $10K to with no questions, my daughter.
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luciano pereira
Junior Member
Username: Luciano

Post Number: 36
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 7:41 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

ApartmentsBA, What great questions! I think this post alone deserves to put in another thread. I mean it.

Q: You mentioned you are an attorney so I assume you understand the pitfalls of buying a property or even putting money down on "separate units" when they aren't separate units. I do a LOT of real estate deals in Argentina (mostly Buenos Aires) but I've purchased in other cities in Argentina as well.

A: Yes I am an attorney, also a teacher in law at U.B.A. and work part time for the service of justice in B.A. Even i don`t know personally you have the most top remarks from people abroad for giving A+ service. So i really apreciated your participation in the thread.

Two things with this issue

a) Pinamar has more than 600.000 tourist per year but is a town of 50.000 people, i have with my fiancee a magazine there that`s why if i envolved in any problem i will probably cannot do more business nor work as lawyer in my whole life that`s why i put my reputation in every aspect of my work.

b) You are 100% correct you NEVER have to put money down without proper asistance from an accountant, lawyer and escribano and MOST IMPORTANT, lots of sense.

Correct me if I am wrong by the term 'pitfalls' i understand weaknesses, well if you get something 33% cheaper have some issues, but the issues are not even close related to ownership, and with the proper legal issues solved you can rent the flat in very little time, do the rest of the work could takes different time depending in your personal knowledge of the place, any from an small or mid sized town will agree that red tape is often weaker when people know you.

By the way "las divisiones de condominio" are very common.

Any can go to an argentinian civil code and read arount article 2692


A: Typically I've found that when a property has a big discount relative to the market there are usually reasons for this. Not always but more times then not there are reasons why the owner sells something at a fire sale price. I am NOT saying that is the case with this deal but you mentioned in your (b) that "the owner didn't do some paperwork that is needed to legally treat each unit as a separate unit".

B: Of course is like buying an used car from a lot, you know that salesman give you some comments like is all cool - but you know that you have to put that 300 bucks in brakes. This is the same if you have to pay for a lawyer to do the work the 33% benefit is going to be reduced drastically as if i have to get a loan for buying the whole building i have to pay the bank at least three times the amount of money in a mortage that's why i prefer to put my work and make a team. To make a team work you need to give and get something.


A: Now I know you are saying it could take a couple of months but you know what? I've seen and done alot in the real estate world here in Argentina and there is one thing I'm sure of. There is a LOT of red tape here in Argentina and things can take forever. So your speculation of "a couple of months" could turn out to take longer. If the "paperwork" isn't done it means that each unit does NOT have a separate title deed. All the units sound like they are lumped together. This is NOT ideal for investors to pool together to buy together unless you personally know all the investors. Why? Because if there is a dispute later it could cause a lot of problems and possibly you have the chance that the units won't each get a separate title deed.

A) To avoid disputes there will be agreements if agreements fails there is mediators, if mediators fails you can go to an arbiter instead of go to justice. For me the WORST people to do bussiness is the ones you are more related for instance family, the biggest fights i saw, i mean really nasty dog fights where divorces and brothers fighting for their heritage, etc you know why? because the money is not an issue feelings are. I think different in this point when the problems is just money is a lot more easy.



a)I work with a whole team of lawyers and many of them are from the top law firms in town. Sometimes seemingly easy issues take forever so I think investors need to keep that in mind in this sort of deal.

b) Ofcourse the bumper sticker said "s word" happens, but if you are treating with people investing is a bit different just put" clause that you use an arbiter in case of dispute, and for the paperwork finished depends in your goal if you are ok being sure is realy yours I mean you legally OWN the property and you can rent or go on vacation there and have no problem to wait or not interested for instance to get a loan and mortage the flat. I mean i can wait for such things for 10k. I often use an arbiter to avoid the traditional justice system.

q) Not to say this is a bad deal at all but I think people need to understand everything when investing in real estate in South America. Most ethical and skilled escribanos won't advise their clients to purchase until the units are legally separated and have their own title deed before putting any money in.

a)That's right sort of, more Escribanos said that's not free i mean if you have that kind of "inconvinience" - big or small depens on you - you have to fight the price (of course i want to buy in less possible money pointing out that kind of things) if you get rid this kind of problems it's easy just put 35k and that's it. It is just the difference from going to mac station in B.A. and pay three times you pay in b&h, of course that travel with the computer is less practical but confort is always expensive.

a) Would the owner agree to having a third party (like the Escribano handling the sale) hold the money in trust and wait to release the funds until the paperwork is all done?

b) Would You accept something like this... i think not for that price, if you pay more for sure. What I think it could be done is give here a serious offer and start right away doing the paperwork trying to have it in the most short time possible. I think in that case could have more sense put 10k more and buy something else, and for God sake hope you have good neighbors that don't complain to put 10 bucks to repair the washing machine, while you are losing customers for that matter.

(to be continued in next message)
}
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1372
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 7:51 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

>...i was asking from a monthly fee point of view.

Got it.
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Tom
Advanced Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 456
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 7:58 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

In all do respect Apts.
Your questions are not all basic in this circumstance.

If you are familiar with Pinamar I would be very surprised if any of the apartments there have doormen. It is a small seacoast village close to the horn, as I call it, of Argentina, near the waters of Bahia Sanbaronbonne.

With Luciano's first response to Roberto it is obvious to a reasonalbe person that he doesn't have all the answers.

I think what he is saying, hey, I have found a good investment and I'm trying to put together a group of investors to buy it. A small group for a small purchase. He is volunteering to do a lot of the work but probalby not to the extent you are asking. Maybe you could help him find out some of the answers after giving your word as a gentleman that you will not snake him out of the deal if he gives you the name of the seller and the exact location. I would want a written document before I divulged that type of information to protect you and him but who knows what he is willing to do. I would suggest he not give it out here for all to see for the reason stated.

And no I do not agree with your statement that he should know all of that information. If he has the idea and finds out enough people are interested for him to do the amount of work your questions reqire, then it would be worth it to him to find out some of answers.

He is a lawyer, Abraham Lincoln said, A lawyers time is his stock in trade. For some who aren't familiar with the phrase, it means a lawyer is selling his learned time for money, that is all he has to sell.

Between you and him, If you both go into it than I think I am going to see if anyone is interested in my offer for one unit and let you guys do the work. You seem to know what you are doing. But I will have an Argentine lawyer's opinion on the deal once the paper work is finished.

Gracias amigo
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Tom
Advanced Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 457
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 8:07 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello Luciano, I have read your last post, I think,
anyway I agree with you and spoken like a true lawyer.
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Tom
Advanced Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 458
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 8:15 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

In a legal agreement that would have to be prepared you spell out what you intend to do and you put in caveats to handle the questions.
We disbar lawyers in the US also.

In simple terms you have an written agreement between the buyers who then have an agreement with the seller.

The agreement with the buyer says some of these questions we have must be answered by him.

Some have to be agreed upon by us. We might put togehter a home owners agreement that would have legally binding requirements that if someone won't pay $10 for their share of the washer or dryer, whatever, the payment bears interest until paid with in a reasonalbe time and if not paid a lien is placed on his property which will allow you to go to court and sell his property or seize his rent or what ever is ageed amoungst the parties.

As to what happens to the common areas, the homeowners association votes on that which of course is written into the original buyers agreement.
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luciano pereira
Junior Member
Username: Luciano

Post Number: 37
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 8:32 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

- You mentioned 9 units. Are these units in a multiple floor building? If so, how many floors in the building?

- When was this built?

Plans and phots would save another long message by monday/ tuesday i will give you some photos.

- Is there only one owner of the property or is it a group? Is the owner a corporation?

Owned by one owner sell by a real estate company.

- Does the property have any liens, encumbrances or mortgages on the property that need to be paid off first?

None

- Will the seller be willing to list the full price of the transaction on the title deeds?

I don't think he is willing but at same point we can force it ;)

- You mentioned that the units aren't broken up into individual title deeds. How many sq. meters (covered and uncovered) are listed on the current title deed? How will outdoor areas be broken down on the title deeds? Shared common outdoor areas?

I am going to scan the title

- Also, although you are a lawyer it would be better for investors to have their own legal counsel and Escribano so they can ensure they have THEIR best interests protected. Are you willing to allow each investor to use his/her own Escribano on the closing?

If they don't use their own lawyers i will feel a bit afraid is a no brainer


- Do you have to-scale floor plans for each unit? Is each unit identical? If not, which are better units? Does one have an advantage over another? If so, who gets to choose which unit they get?

if you are really interested i would do all that.

- Is the area zoned residential only or commercial or residential/commercial?

Residential only, but i want to re check and scan

- What else is on that block? Is it all residential? Is there empty land in that area that can be built on or any buildings that can be built that will block the ocean view? That to me seems to be a huge advantage but is there a possibility the view could be blocked or partially blocked?

All residential, the empty land is the entrance instead of have tails have grass but is the entrance of the building. The view is not in ocean view is . i think photos would be better.


- Is there a realtor fee? I assume not since you are pooling investors together.

I am pooling investors because i didn't want to take a loan their is a real estate company involved.

- Is there a stamp tax or will it be waived?
- Again, can the owner wait to get the boleto or the full payment until all the paperwork is done to divide out the title deeds for each property?

http://www.apartmentsba.com/argentina-real-estate- consulting-&-property-management-69/importance-of- using-an-ethical-lawyer-in-argentina-real-estate-8 5/



- Is there a pool or room to build a pool?

We are talking 20k i hope you don't expect to much and photos or organize a trip would be help.

- You mentioned potential cash flow from the unit via rentals. What is the average typical weekly rent in Pinamar during high season? Also, do you plan to have one property manager for all the units or is every man/investor for himself to rent it out? If there is one property manager, how will the rentals get divided between 9 units? what will be the deciding factor whose units are rented first? What will the property manager fee be? Will he/she pay the monthly bills as almost all the investors will NOT live in Pinamar? If so, what is their monthly fee?
- Will the building have a doorman? Is there security? What common expenses do you estimate per month?
- Do you have an estimated net rate of return spreadsheet on the cash flow potential via rentals including all monthly expenses including cable, internet, phone, electricity, gas, condo fees, shared expenses (including gardener)?

i made my own numbers i will share i don't offer free market research. All that answers need to be treated by the possible owners afterwars by private mail, im or in person.

- Is the area easily able to get ALL utilities including phone service, cable service, high speed internet, cellphone coverage, water, electricity, gas?

Of course

- What is the heating and water system? Is it central hot water or individual hot water? Heating central or individual?

Photos i will send there is no central services

- Do you have a Google Satellite map of the location?

No

- Do you have a spreadsheet with all the expenses and closing costs including legal fees, taxes, closing costs, possible stamp taxes?

I have my trustful notebook (not computer binder i mean)



What are the top 5 positives of this deal?

- price
- location
- roi
- new opportunity to make new deals
- pinamar is fun!

What are the top 5 NEGATIVE things about this property in your eyes? (besides the title deeds aren't individually separated).

- I afraid some buyers are just going to buy for selling very quick i hope we can do an agreement to have an option to buy first.
-- ideal for rent but if you want to put Hansgrohe and a toto toilet nobody is going to pay you more at least local people so you have to decide if you want it for rent or for you
- for my taste it need a bit of work in common areas
- I don't think it's the cup of tea for everyone for some people 10k don't worth the trouble.
- buying something near the beach makes you want to catch a wave and i admit it lead with us lawyers, escribanos and red tape sucks!
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luciano pereira
Junior Member
Username: Luciano

Post Number: 38
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 9:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Let me do this thread shorter:

- I really like the place IMHO has potential

If all legal aspects are covered, how many of you would be seriously interested in?

If there are enough interested i will put to work if not i will take another path.

Tom you really said what i was thinking. i certainly don't have all the answers i just wanted to know if it is worth to find them.


“Be polite to all, but intimate with few.”

Thomas Jefferson
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Tom
Advanced Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 459
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 11:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I am interested for sure.

I would love to have a place in Pinamar for the beach even though it is not on the beach it is close enough.
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DAN
New member
Username: Crazygaucho

Post Number: 24
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 9:24 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hey Luciano I going to drive to Loberias monday or by the end of the week, do you have an address so if I have time I'll check the area. how far is it from mar del plata or necochea ?
gracias
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Apartmentsba.com
Intermediate Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 236
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 9:43 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Luciano,

Thanks for your answers and the nice comment you made about me and my firm. It's always nice to hear something positive like that so I appreciate it. Again, I wasn't trying to post this was a bad deal. The questions I presented in this forum were to provide a bit of a guideline what types of questions people should be asking if they want to invest in real estate in South America. I wasn't even saying that you needed to answer them publicly. My point was to educate people reading a bit about the general types of things you should ask.

The biggest mistake I've seen people make in real estate is they buy a property (land, house, apartment) only based on the price and if it's so cheap they lose a bit of common sense and don't ask any/enough questions. Like I mentioned, you should be asking the same types of questions regardless of how much you are investing. Even if you can afford to lose the money it's still a good idea to go into a real estate investment knowing EVERYTHING from the beginning.

I don't know you but you seem like a gentleman. I've always believed that intelligent discussion on public message boards benefits everyone.

I agree with you about never doing business with family. Here in Argentina I've seen a lot of families fight over money, deals, etc. Personally on real estate I don't like partnering much because there is the potential for disputes. Yes, you can go to arbitration but EVERYTHING seems to take forever here. There are so many chances for dispute in real estate deals...especially one where the title deed will change from the moment you are buying it to after. Disputes can arise between people wanting to sell out vs people wanting to split up the deeds. You can have all the contracts ahead of time you want but just one person can hold up a sale or potential sale if you are all owners before the title deed gets split up.

It sounds like it could be a good possibility as really all of Argentina is becoming more well known with foreigners and I believe land prices will go up in most areas. Especially unique areas. I did the same strategy a few years ago. I started buying up land in Punta del Este and the same land I bought 3 years ago has doubled in value and I think over the next decade it could skyrocket as well as there is no more land for sale in the area of La Barra I bought in.

I'd be interested in the deal and I'd be happy to meet you Luciano. PM me and we can arrange to meet in my office if you want. I most likely can get all the rest of the investors you need or I can maybe buy the rest of the units with you if the paperwork issue can be resolved. I've always looking to acquire good real estate in Argentina in good areas if (a) it can provide a good cash flow via rentals and (b) has significant capital appreciation opportunity. This deal sounds like it might have both.

For your own benefit and possibly that of your investors you might also want to check what the zoning limits will allow you to built up. What the FOT is. That is..how many floors could you build up. Some of my most lucrative and profitable deals in Argentina were buying existing properties on land and then knocking down the house or building and building up. The potential for $$$$$ is so huge in those kind of deals. Much more so then simply buying to use the existing units so you should check that as well. In one situation I bought an old building in Palermo Viejo on a good sized piece of land and I'm getting ready to build a 6 floor - 24 apartment unit on the property. Yes, the building/land was expensive but the profit on that deal was astronomical. So find out how many floors you can build on the land. You can possibly sell the entire thing and make a fortune.

Threads like this are informative for the general public and I believe that is why Roberto made this board. Cheers all.
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Simon Fawkes
Junior Member
Username: Expatba

Post Number: 46
Registered: 1-2007


Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 10:24 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

ABA is spot on with the questions that a potential investor should be asking. There's so much scope for things to go wrong or for things not to be quite what they seem - things that may be taken for granted in other countries, for example.

Luciano, I too am potentially interested in buying one or more of the units if the paperwork (i.e. unit separation) issue can be resolved.

I would also add a more general point that I would never buy a property without seeing it first and checking out the building and its locale with my own eyes. Anyone who doesn't is potentially asking for trouble.
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Tom
Advanced Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 460
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 5:35 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Luciano
I doubt that I will be down to Buenos Aires until after the Super Bowl(February 2008).
I have been talking to Roberto here about having another gathering of posters in Buenos Aires. Maybe in February.

As I stated before I am definitely interested.
You have 9 apartments which if sold to 9 individuals would make a good democratic one appartment one vote homeowners association.
That way no one person would be able to control the property.

With Apts, Dan, you, me and Possibly Roberto who appeared to be interested also we would have 5 people. I think it would be easy to get 4 more. If the homeowners agreement is well crafted into an airtight contract I see no problem for a group of people who do not know each other to go into the venture together. How many people have bought homes subject to a homeowners association rules that knew each other before they bought? Let's just say a lot.

I have been to Pinamar and love the place. I have a couple of photos I took there which I will have to look for and If there is a way I can post them here I will do so. I think it is one of the most desirous places to live in all of Argentina and vacation at. I have lived in Argentina and know what it is like to try and get a place to stay near the beach in the summer and other holidays as well. And these were families going to the beach, not just kids.

Are the apartments one bedroom or just efficiencies? It matters to me only in the sense a one bedroom would allow a family of 3 or 4 to rent with the parents in the br and the children on a fold out couch. Either way I am still interested.

I was actually able to get a commitment on a 5mil land deal there from the sellers giving potential buyers time to get their money together for 90 days without putting down a deposit. Your guy may not be willing to give us that long but possibly he would understand there is an investment group you are putting together that wants to know for sure before they commit that this is the real thing. If not 90 days maybe4 60 or even 45 could be enough.

With an experienced lawyer who understands the ramifications of trust that a lawyer assumes, which as you know is a higher standard than the common man, and Apts experience in real estate there I would be in without seeing the property if the process moves along before I get down there.

By the way, Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
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Tom
Advanced Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 461
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 6:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

In looking at some of my other emails which sometimes takes me a while to get to I saw this blog about renting in Pinamar

http://www.travelsur.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?2/2222

(Message edited by admin on November 11, 2007)
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AnuncioArgentina.com
New member
Username: Anuncioargentinacom

Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 9:54 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Luciano, I´m def. interested in this deal, please keep me posted whenever you gets some more info!
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luciano pereira
Junior Member
Username: Luciano

Post Number: 39
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi to all of you, as usual sorry for any error in my english and for the long silence.

I am doing my best effort to have all things done in the best way before we do our first move as Smokey Bear says 'safety first'.

Jokes aside as ABA says you have to do a lot of research before jump in in this kind of things, real estate salesman are not exactly priests and often well know for their honesty - I mean lack - that's why i never tell i am a lawyer or in the case of Pinamar where more people know me i send other people instead of me to 'check' his behaviour. In this case the salesman is a gentleman but not very easy going and also hasen't got all the required information.


-- let's jump to the important stuff ---

I just called the escribana (female noun for escribano = notary public = fedatario - fedatario because his/her put his/her faith in the legal act, [put faith = dar fe = amtsfertigung in german]) she is going to call me back but his clerk told me some things that were different from what the sales man told me: THERE EXISTS PLANS for instance.

I want to have the whole picture before still bothering you but this deal is looking better and better i just want to 'triple-check' some information that people nearby the building told to my fiancee yesterday.

By the way i received a HUGE amount of mails about this subject all all very colaborative and with the best manners I've ever seen!

As some of you knows besides been a lawyer I also have with my fiancee a magazine and a starting company in Pinamar, if 5 percent of your feedback became in real projects i am thinking in quit my practice in BA and dedicated full time in Pinamar and Carilo.

--- Some a bit off topic remarks --------------------------------

1º Go to ABA site - i don't endorse it or meet him personally but his site have a lot of great information in plain english - no obscure jargon there.

2º There are other opportunities in Pinamar and Carilo if you are satisfied with the result of this deal maybe we can do more thing in the future. Also as the amount of participant in this thread make me think that would be more than 9 people interested, not being part of a deal is not the end of the world, other deals would be around the corner. So if roberto agree this we can keep this thread alive, clean it up (i mean instead of Luciano said, ABA said, Tom, etc clean it all and put it in a more logical structure) or even better keep it like this kind of brain storming notebook and have a separete thread/blog with the whole issues covered in bigger detail.


--- Insanely off topic -------------------------------


3º You are all great persons even if this deal will not be closed i want to meet you in person and even i offer to prepare an asado some day.

4º Thank you Keith! you are a true artist! a Frank Lloyd Wright in silicon steroids!

5º Just for Sean (wtmendoza) Do you need further help with your webpage?
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luciano pereira
Junior Member
Username: Luciano

Post Number: 40
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 3:27 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

NEW INFORMATION: I just call to Pinamar and the flats are booked for us until next monday. Now i can calm down a bit, and fight the price also i am going to ask for bugets to put the building in value - i hope this is how is say in english - in that case we can buy it and do the works ourselves. Stay tuned.
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luciano pereira
Junior Member
Username: Luciano

Post Number: 41
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 3:32 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Just two more things:


a) I just talk with some friends of mine and i have some serious request for rent.

b) I received by mail and in a moment of softness my geekness was stronger than my brain and I installed osx leopard, bad choice while you are working, my digital camara an also my card reader is not getting alone fine with the new cat as soon i can tame the kitty i am going to dump the photos to hard disk and then i will post it.
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luciano pereira
Junior Member
Username: Luciano

Post Number: 42
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 9:58 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

More news (and snapshots): [very long text]

- I solved photo problems link at bottom with explanation

As this is getting more serious i want to answer again aba questions with all his usefull questions and other more details. I want to give crystal clear details so who are interested can get a whole picture of the situation, some things are different and talking with escribana and an architect give me a more logical explanation to what the salesman told me, i just want to see the papers with escribana to be 100% sure that are ok. But at least for me now the deal looks better. I advice read very carefully this message:

I put numbers in order to identify questions better, any further question please use the same system

1º Would the owner agree to having a third party (like the Escribano handling the sale) hold the money in trust and wait to release the funds until the paperwork is all done?

I am working towards that i think that is possible i want to be competely honest, owner have some cash flow problems because is working in a new project. That's why he sell it 'in block' as he need money to solve paperwork i offered my services instead of doing a first payment and use the money to pay another lawyer to complete that task. For me is a win-win situation because i have more control of the paperwork and in the process i can 'shell out' a bit less money for the flat i want to buy. I hope nobody have problems with this, i tell you this sistuation in order to have facts straight, i prefer to lost this particular deal than lost your trust. There's always another deal around the corner so if someone have a problem with this issue please let me know.

To sum it up, is very likly that when the deal is closed every owner is going to have their own title for each flat and all paperwork done at the same moment. Depending in what escribana tell me by friday i can even make a timeline.

2º - You mentioned 9 units. Are these units in a multiple floor building? If so, how many floors in the building?

All 9 units are in Planta Baja (Ground floor) and also have two more floors, there are around 27 flats in total. The 9 flats are separated in two building blocks.

The first block - closer to sea in order to identify it - is in the common hall, the other ones have a separate private entrance

3º When was this built?

35 years ago, builder sell the two upper floors (by stair) and keep 9 flats for directly rent it.

4º - Is there only one owner of the property or is it a group? Is the owner a corporation?

Talking specific about the 9 flats, the land was bought by an individual, and that land was later bought by the constructor (so in fact the owner is a corporation)

5º Does the property have any liens, encumbrances or mortgages on the property that need to be paid off first?

No, there are some tax debts that are going to be paid by the seller not the buyers.

6º Will the seller be willing to list the full price of the transaction on the title deeds?

I don't think so because the price is separated in two parts
a) The flat price b) A contract to have the flats put in value and repaired (paint, etc). Have in mind that the building is half block from sea and any who knows flats in this kind of area knows that need from time to time this kind of work.

To sum it up from the total you and me we are going to have the escritura for X money plus a contract (if you want and i prefer signed in the escribania at the same time)for the rest of the money giving both the total amount of the purchase. Factura from the builder for that services is another issue. In order to have peace of mind about how the works is going to be done and having in mind that none of you is from the area i offer to be legally responsible about them. (for me is not a burden is even an element to pressure more the builder and have a bigger control about the works)

7º You mentioned that the units aren't broken up into individual title deeds. How many sq. meters (covered and uncovered) are listed on the current title deed? How will outdoor areas be broken down on the title deeds? Shared common outdoor areas?

This question now is less important in some aspects as is very likly to have broken down the title deeds at the moment of purchase.

First block (shared hall), i don't list the mesaure that includes common parts and just the aprox. 'fast ruler mesaure' of the flats

35 m2 covered 6m2 uncovered)
25 m2 covered 10 m2 uncovered
30 m2 covered 10 m2 uncovered
25 m2 covered

As each flat have different meause we have to find the way to choose them.

Total measure for first block 115 covered, 26 uncovered, wich represent almost 7.20% of the building and the month payment (including you said doorman but more than a doorman is like a handyman who is there whole year fixing things and do the cleaning, take care of the garden, etc) is around 150, 200 pesos.

Second Block (separate entrance)

5 flats with around 25m2 each with a 53m2 uncovered separate hall



8º Also, although you are a lawyer it would be better for investors to have their own legal counsel and Escribano so they can ensure they have THEIR best interests protected. Are you willing to allow each investor to use his/her own Escribano on the closing?

Of course!!!!!

9º Do you have to-scale floor plans for each unit? Is each unit identical? If not, which are better units? Does one have an advantage over another? If so, who gets to choose which unit they get?

I am working to get the full scale plans, there are great sea side units, is a compromise from a bit more space or a bit more private. I ask some people in real estate and tell me that in this kind of building that difference in meters is not that important for price and the big element to take into account is location.

10º - Is the area zoned residential only or commercial or residential/commercial?

residential only, in fact is a very family oriented neighbour because is very quiet even is 4 block from center.


11º What else is on that block? Is it all residential? Is there empty land in that area that can be built on or any buildings that can be built that will block the ocean view? That to me seems to be a huge advantage but is there a possibility the view could be blocked or partially blocked?

There are no empty land there are 4 buildings similar in size from sea to land direction and a couple more after the building. There don't have ocean view - sorry but my broken english is sometimes give me headaches - as you are half block you can see the sea but is not that you are in front of it whatsoever

12º - Is there a realtor fee? I assume not since you are pooling investors together.

Do you mean comision? is included in price, i mean i fight back the idea of sellsman to charge it because he told that 9 flats are almost the same and i will quit the deal so is very very likly that seller is going to pay it.

13º - Is there a stamp tax or will it be waived?

I want escribana give me the full final price for it

14º - - Is there a pool or room to build a pool?

No, but being half block from sea i find it kinda useless, a decorator would give us better ideas i think.

15º You mentioned potential cash flow from the unit via rentals. What is the average typical weekly rent in Pinamar during high season? Also, do you plan to have one property manager for all the units or is every man/investor for himself to rent it out? If there is one property manager, how will the rentals get divided between 9 units? what will be the deciding factor whose units are rented first? What will the property manager fee be? Will he/she pay the monthly bills as almost all the investors will NOT live in Pinamar? If so, what is their monthly fee?

I answered before but before buying i will give you my calculation details, we can do whatever you want about rent system.

16º Will the building have a doorman? Is there security? What common expenses do you estimate per month?

Yes $100/200

17º Is the area easily able to get ALL utilities including phone service, cable service, high speed internet, cellphone coverage, water, electricity, gas?

Yes just a remark about gas, the building have gas system but also bottled gas propane in a special place, as the service for gas is monthly some people prefer not paying and just pay the bootle. To have directly gas is a setup cost (the reason of this is gas in Pinamar get in Pinamar just 15 years ago and flats where prepared for it but in the meantime use propane bootles) I said bootles because i don't know the exact word in english is a small common tank. I think we can just get rid of it and pay for setup or use electricity for cooking and warming. Is up to you.

18º What is the heating and water system? Is it central hot water or individual hot water? Heating central or individual?

No central

19º Do you have a Google Satellite map of the location?

I just cand find it, maybe with a gps aid i will find it.

20º Do you have a spreadsheet with all the expenses and closing costs including legal fees, taxes, closing costs, possible stamp taxes?

on preparation for sharing

21º - Do you have an estimated net rate of return spreadsheet on the cash flow potential via rentals including all monthly expenses including cable, internet, phone, electricity, gas, condo fees, shared expenses (including gardener)?

on preparation for sharing

22º Just some pics

http://picasaweb.google.com/drlucianopereira/Pinamar?pli=1
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luciano pereira
Junior Member
Username: Luciano

Post Number: 43
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 10:08 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

by sunday i am going there give some pocket money to some cleaning guys open the flats and take some snapshots from the inside also fight a bit the final price, all depending in the answer of the escribana by friday. After your comments we can create the final list of interested buyers. Even if we not close this deal i hope to maintain a good relationship with all of you.
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luciano pereira
Junior Member
Username: Luciano

Post Number: 44
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 10:09 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

http://picasaweb.google.com/drlucianopereira/Pinam ar?pli=1

Just a live link
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Simon Fawkes
Junior Member
Username: Expatba

Post Number: 47
Registered: 1-2007


Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 10:37 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Luciano

Thanks for the update. I'm a little confused. Regarding question 2 - the 9 flats are in 2 separate buildings, on the ground floor (first floor to Americans) of each building?

Is each of the 2 buildings and the land in the same ownership?

Each of those buildings has a further 2 floors above which are not part of the deal? Are all the remaining units owned by the same person? If not, do they have already have a residents' association, and how are the existing expenses managed? Surely these units would have to be factored into a residents' association to make the building manageable?

I'm just trying to understand exactly what the situation is.

Thanks. Simon.
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Apartmentsba.com
Intermediate Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 244
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 11:11 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks Luciano but like Simon I'm also confused. I had the EXACT same questions he did. Really the floor plans are a necessity. Also, have you been to each of the 9 flat for sale? Have you personally been inside of EACH unit? I didn't see any photos at all of any of the insides of the units. Also it would be helpful to have photos of the view from each unit so you can see what the view is looking out of the apartment and also on the floor plan detailed information on where the external windows are so investors can see how much natural sunlight will enter the unit.

It would be good as well to have a basic diagram (if to-scale plans aren't available) of the entire property with the buildings on it so you can show where each unit is. Also, I think the units might need to be priced differently between the investors vs. each investor putting in an equal part depending on the floor plan, location and size of the unit. 25 sq. meters is much different than 35 sq. meters.

Also, before a formal offer is made on the units you should make it conditional on it passing an architect's inspection to make sure there are no problems with humidity, gas, electrical, plumbing, etc. That is something that is very important.

You will find there are lots of opportunities to make money in real estate if you take the time and do it right. In real estate you never have a 2nd chance to make a first impression and if investors get burned on a deal you most likely won't be able to put together other deals. On the other hand, you will find if you take the time to put together a good deal and your investors make money the sky is the limit and you can make lots of money on other deals.

So my advice is to continue doing what you are doing and getting all the information, detailed floor plans and also all the information that is necessary. Make sure if/when you make an offer you make it clearly contingent on every unit included in the offer passing a licensed architect's inspection and if for any reason any of the units have problems you can get your reserva back. This will protect you and the investors.

Again, you should never just look at the price on a piece of real estate. $20,000 might seem cheap but it's not cheap if you are buying a property where you inherit problems with possible gas problems, electrical problems, humidity issues or severe plumbing problems. I can't tell you how many emails and phone calls I've received over the past several years from foreigners that were in tears because the 'cheap apartment' they thought they were buying wasn't so cheap with all kinds of issues and problems. Know what you are buying.

Remember, as I posted before.. always do plenty of due diligence and ask these types of questions when buying real estate. It doesn't matter if it's $20,000 or $20 million. I've NEVER lost money in a real estate deal in my life and part of the reason why is I do a LOT of due diligence on the front end.

Real estate is a complex investment and should be taken as such with a lot of due diligence. So, I'd say there are still lots of questions to ask and information that needs to be provided first.

I also think you will find on future deals you can basically put the entire deal together. Answer ALL due diligence questions first before you solicit investors, get all the floor plans, detailed photographs, etc. and then you can get investors and charge them a premium for doing all the work. Most serious investors will be more than happy to pay a premium to have all the questions answered first before putting money in. There is a lot of money to be made that way and you will come across as more organized and serious. There are infinite ways to make money in real estate.

Best.
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luciano pereira
Junior Member
Username: Luciano

Post Number: 45
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 1:11 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

First, thanks to all of you for your remarkable kind and valuable comments. I tend always do things in a more polished, clear and structured way. This is a exception because this opportunity took me in an unsusual moment (i recently bought a loft in 'las cañitas' and I am redecorating it) other than that there were very interested local buyers trying to get it so before even think in a business proposal i jump in saying something like 'hey i find something that looks very interesting' at least for me, are you interested? what do you think? Besides this 'rough start' i really want to do things right i never even thought to take a position like 'hey guys let's get crazy and put some money without questions' it is something more like i find this, help me to do 'my homework' in this kind of business - do a profitable business and give legal advice are two very different things - and see what happen.

After this introduction i tell you that i know this building almost 12 years ago, so even sometimes memory could be fuzzy, i on the spot remember location and flats. I know this sell before even a sign was placed. And want to take advantage of this fact otherwise 99% of this kind of sells are managed between a very few limited number of people that are doing this kind of things in every day basis.

ABA said, quoted "So my advice is to continue doing what you are doing and getting all the information, detailed floor plans and also all the information that is necessary. "

Thanks for the encourage i am going to do the best i could even if we pass in this deal because this task would be usuful for somebody else in the future.

I really take the time to re-read what i have wrote before and it looks a bit obscure, that's why i always remark that you need to have in mind that my english is limited.

After this introduction i will do my best to be more clear:

a) When i said 9 flats in a block I refered to the operation i mean i have 9 flats and i want to sell it all together.
b) But the building have 2 more floors above.
c) That flats are bought by different people since 35 years ago.
d) Exists a residents' association, now again when i said that we can have our own 'code of conduct' i meaned that as the flats are phisically together you can have the opportunity to managed better rental and living in general, even more 5 of the flats have a separate entrance that has nothing to do with the two floors above and is a private space for them wich give practically a bigger independence from the rest of the building, by the way is a very family oriented building if any want to get more involved with this deal we can arrange to trip together to see it and also you can ask me for particular photos as ABA do. This kind of remarks are very useful don't be afraid to do all the questions that you have in your mind, this is the only way to be sure that i understand your point completely and even more this is the way to look things that i could overlooked.
e) Expenses as I said are managed as a % of the space the flat have, they cost for this flats around 100/200 pesos.
f) Of course if this continues and i get a good response from some aspect that i have to check with the escriba Sunday i go to take photos from the inside and get a copy of the plans, as could be big i try to go to a place with a special scanner for that matters or get a reduced photocopy and scan that. or do several scans and put it togheter in a single pdf. Let see this afterwards.
g) Of course the floor plans are a necessity as the each unit photos, as the flats was not open for a while i give some time in some of them to do some cleaning before photos i also was in a hurry to be back to b.a.
h) Priced differently between the investors: of course the original idea was buy them in a block put to rent it togheter and get the 1/9 of the rent each one. With the opportunity to have separete the units beforehand this proposal change and 'evolved' for saying in a way in other thing. Let's took the time necessary to check this. Photos and plans are a must and would help in this task.
i) Architect's inspection: it's important of course.

Just one thing. (a very important one)

Lets take the 25m2 flat with no backyard and have the average (a bit less in fact) price for rentals:

Second half of december u$s 1000 (christmas is really important for rental)
January (first 15 days) u$s 1200
January (second 15 days) u$s 1000
Febraury (first 15 days) u$s 800
Febraury (second 15 days) u$s 700
March (first 15 days) u$s 600
March (second 15 days) u$s 500
Semana Santa (4 days) u$s 500
Rest of the year (not including proportional of expenses and taxes) u$s 200 a month

This is the price just giving a place to sleep if you put for instance wifi or other ammenities prices goes even 50% more

Renting by week often charges 20/30 percent more

Do your own maths and tell me honestly what you think as if you are not interested in i have to take a loan ASAP

Thanks to all of you, i wait for more feedback
Luciano
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luciano pereira
Junior Member
Username: Luciano

Post Number: 46
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 1:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

There is so much more to consider than the actual property. The three most important things in real estate are (1) LOCATION, (2) LOCATION AND (3) LOCATION.

Take this for instance is the price of a two stars (really in an international way one star) hotel in pesos - notice this hotel is at least 14 blocks further i mean a lot less closer from beach -

ENERO Tarifas desde el 27-12-07 al 31-01-08
Habitación single $ 160.-

Habitación doble $ 270.-
Con cama matrimonial o dos camas individuales.

Habitación doble superior
$ 320.- Con cama matrimonial o dos camas individuales.
Aire Acondicionado y sommier

(you see air condition change price from 270 to 320 per day)

Habitación triple $ 350.-
En un solo ambiente con tres camas individuales o una cama matrimonial y una individual.

Habitación cuádruple $ 420.-
Posee dos ambientes, uno con cama matrimonial y el otro con dos camas individuales con un baño.

Habitación quíntuple $ 480.-
Posee dos ambientes, uno con cama matrimonial y el otro con tres camas con un baño.
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Apartmentsba.com
Intermediate Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 245
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 3:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Luciano,

I don't think anyone is doubting the potential for income. It's more a matter of people want to know what they are getting before they buy. Yes, location, location, location is important but it's more important to know exactly what you are getting. You can have a property in the best location and it doesn't necessarily mean it is a good investment. I pass up lots of properties all the time in Recoleta or Palermo in the sweetest areas because the properties are a disaster, they might need too much work, the expenses don't make sense. Some of them have had roof problems, humidity problems or extensive problems structurally.

Location, location, location doesn't necessarily mean something is a good investment. I'm certainly NOT saying that is the case with this property but trust me. There are lots of great properties in great areas that are bad investments.

Also, why aren't the properties already broken into their own title deeds? What about the rest of the properties in the complex? Do they all have their own individual escrituras (title deeds)? If not, why?
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luciano pereira
Junior Member
Username: Luciano

Post Number: 47
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 3:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Also, why aren't the properties already broken into their own title deeds?

Because are all owned by the constructor they never sell and at the moment has no need to do it or pay for it.

By the way as i remarked before people who is interested in is going to pay having individual title deeds

What about the rest of the properties in the complex? Do they all have their own individual escrituras (title deeds)? If not, why?

Yes all have their own title deeds in fact second floor (third for americans) by stair was sold last year u$s 35.000 by one particular owner

Dear Saint at this moment i just want to make a small check list to know what issues are important to you to 'be in' or 'be out' of this deal.

All your remarks are very useful for me and always welcome but i want to have things more clear in order to know who is interested who is not and in that case make a list of possible buyers, if there are less than 8 i am strongly thinking in get a small loan to buy more than one.

I know you have a lot experience in B.A. and other places but are you familiar with prices in Pinamar? By the way I know a pretty good flat (90m2) for u$s150.000 just painted just a block more away the sea.

If someone is interested in let me know (i repeat repairs are included in that price)
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Keith Mangan
New member
Username: Kreation

Post Number: 6
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 4:35 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Luciano

If you have any trouble getting a large flatbed scanner for the plans; just mail me individual A4 scans and I can patch them together for you.I do it all the time so its no hassle.
If they need to be cleaned up a bit I can do that for you too.

Just to let you know;I am going to step back on this one;its not what I am looking for at the moment.However if you come accross some new-builds or potential for complete remodels please drop me a mail.

Keith
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Apartmentsba.com
Intermediate Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 246
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 5:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Luciano - I will know if I'm interested once I see the floor plans and photos of the actual units with the view. Then if it looks appealing I can make arrangements to visit the properties in person so I can see first hand what I'm buying. But the first step is to see the floor plans and the photos.

Yes, I have a lot of experience in BA and I also have purchased many properties and land in Punta del Este but even if I had NO experience in real estate, I'd still ask all the basic questions I asked above and I would want to see detailed floor plans and photos. I'd also want an architect inspection before I made an offer (which I'd be willing to pay for). In fact, anyone making an offer should have an architect inspection with a confirmation of the # of sq. meters in a to-scale floor plan of each unit.

Like I said before, location is important but there are still details that are still a bit fuzzy. Email me the photos of the inside of each unit with the outside view from the apartment unit along with a floor plan and I can tell you if I'm interested in moving forward.

In fact, you can probably get an architect to go out and inspect all 9 of them for a reduced fee. Those interested could pool together and share the cost for the architect and the architect can send to-scale floor plans of EACH unit and you can take detailed photos. Without those things I don't see how anyone really knows what exactly is for sale. I visited the photo gallery and so far all i see is a photo of the ocean, a photo of the outside of the building, and a hallway shot. I see no shots of the inside of the apartment nor the floor plans. Those are the things that would be essential to see and photos for each unit as really if there are already 8 people interested there is no guarantee that the photo that you might show is necessarily the one that the investor will get.

My advice to you (which you can choose to ignore) is to take the time and expense to get this all organized. Get an architect in there to do a detailed inspection on each property, get MANY photos of each of the inside of the units and a photo of the view from the unit (each one) and then really I think any investor would value your time. You could charge a finder's fee possibly to market this project and charge for your time and that of the architect's inspection and the photos, etc. That always has made sense on how I do things.

So the check-list would be:

- Detailed photos of the inside of the apartment. Many different angles and taken from every corner of the apartment including the kitchen, the bathrooms, photos of the flooring, the ceiling and photos of the view.

- A detailed floor plan of each unit.

- A general map of the building and where this complex sits in relation to the other buildings.

- An architect's inspection will be needed before I made an offer or put down any money. I'd be happy to pay for the inspection and really it's not difficult. Any architect could do it. I do these all the time. I buy about 2-3 properties every week and do inspections almost every day. The inspection should be fairly detailed. I can email you a sample of how it should be but here are some key details below. Keep in mind it's not specific to this property. I'm just giving you details what I usually look for.

- Electricity (detailed description of the set up; if it's working ok - entry phone; security system)

- Plumbing - (cold water; hot water working; water pressure ok; temperature ok)

- Gas Installation set up?

- Heating - Type?

- AC - Anything installed?

- Doors and windows - condition of them

- Phone system present? Working:

- Cable outlets present

- Elevator in building

- Hallway condition outside of the entrance way

- Rooms (type of flooring; wall conditions; roof condition - any signs of humidity; orientation; natural lighting); closet present

- Toilette - does it work? Is there exhaust fan present? Window? Natural lighting?

Then next to each thing I described I have the architect place a check box and I have him list a possibility of 4 check boxes for EACH item in each room. He can rank it bad, regular, good or very good.

These are just some of the things I do when I evaluate a piece of real estate. It doesn't matter if I'm buying in Buenos Aires, Salta, Punta del Este, London, China, wherever. I'd still do the same process no matter where the property was located and no matter how much it cost.

My advice is for those that claim to be interested to you that might be PM'ing you, ask them if they are willing to pay for an architect inspection. Tell them you need the money to do it before they make an offer. If they hesitate or don't want to send it, you know what? It means they aren't really serious. In real estate you can spin your wheels and waste a lot of time with people that aren't serious. You are a lawyer and time is money. You will find a lot of people talk a big talk but when it comes to spending the money they all of a sudden disappear. And if these potential investors aren't willing to pay for an architect inspection then they are NOT the type of people you want pooling together and "partnering" with because it means they are foolish.

Luciano - you mentioned that you might go into real estate so I'll give you free advice. Guard your time very carefully. I almost became a lawyer after University but I came to my senses and I knew almost immediately I didn't want to be a lawyer. I knew there were better ways of making a lot more money but especially doing something else I found more rewarding. Yes, many lawyers make quite good money but it's very difficult to become wealthy charging one hour at a time which lawyers essentially do.

I remember when I started here in Buenos Aires I had a lot of people that said they were interested and they really weren't, didn't have the money or weren't serious. Then I had a brilliant idea. I wouldn't even meet with anyone unless they paid me an initial consultation fee. I charge several hundred dollars to meet and answer their questions either on the phone or in person. All of a sudden I only was dealing with those that are VERY serious about buying. Guard your time carefully and deal with people that are serious. Something you might find helpful as you start your career in real estate.

I hope this helps.

-
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1377
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 6:22 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I think paying for Lucianos's work is reasonable. Or pooling money for inspections and such... If he puts too much time and the deal fails to materialize this can bring about resentment. Paying comes with obligations though, so it has to be carefully considered.

I am slightly less interested in this deal because of the size of the units and the fact they are ground floor. At first, I thought they would be 40m2 covered but this doesn't rule out that the ROI can be substantial.

I want to thank Luciano for bringing it up here and also because he takes everything in a positive light which speaks of an outstanding attitude -good for business-.
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Tom
Advanced Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 462
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 6:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I have just come in and started reading the oldest email first so forgive me if this has already been addressed.

Quote: "I don't think so because the price is separated in two parts
a) The flat price b) A contract to have the flats put in value and repaired (paint, etc). Have in mind that the building is half block from sea and any who knows flats in this kind of area knows that need from time to time this kind of work.

This causes me to err on the side of caution. I would have to see the condition of my apartmetn before I agree to any improvement idea being done by the builder. The cost and quality of workmanship must be guarranteed and an estimated date of completion with a daily penality for unreasonable delays, say ten days. A contract for the repairs cost certain and this cannot be a provision of sale. We should be able to get competing estimates.

But so far I like what you are saying and agree, I will read more.
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Tom
Advanced Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 463
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 6:54 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Luciano, a lot of good questions and advice.

I am reading it piece meal but I agree with APTS,
"I don't think anyone is doubting the potential for income. It's more a matter of people want to know what they are getting before they buy. Yes, location, location, location is important but it's more important to know exactly what you are getting. You can have a property in the best location and it doesn't necessarily mean it is a good investment. I pass up lots of properties all the time in Recoleta or Palermo in the sweetest areas because the properties are a disaster, they might need too much work, the expenses don't make sense. Some of them have had roof problems, humidity problems or extensive problems structurally."

So far I have serious issues with the seller repairing it. He is getting his value in that he is the contactor, plus the cost of the property. He is discounting the price with the cost of repair added on.

I am still interested. The key words so far for me is Apts mentioned he was not doubting the rental income potential which I am certain will be adequate. In the law, as you know, people want certainty.

I take a break about once a week when I am home and have a few Coors lights with my nephew, an old friend. Today was the day.

So... govern yourself accordingly.
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luciano pereira
Junior Member
Username: Luciano

Post Number: 48
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 7:48 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

thanks aba for your comments thats the kind of feedback i needed i just worried that after re-reading my previous message i find a bit rough that's again for my lack of fluency, please don't take it personal and in case you fell bad about it i apologized.

About inspection: i could take the photographs and join with the arquitect to look the building but BEFOREHAND i want to sign in some kind of agreement with possible buyers. I think is fair.

Third this is how is the price componed

A) PURCHASE: U$S15.000.-
B) FIX: U$S 5.000.- (including realtor fee from REAL ESTATE)

Flats definetly need work if someone don't want to have their flat fixed can have it repaired by their own, also it could be possible to find diferent budgets and schedules for repairs, i talk always the price of the flats repaired as is a must in the conditions that are now
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Tom
Advanced Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 464
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 7:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

How big are they, Sorry I missed that.
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luciano pereira
Junior Member
Username: Luciano

Post Number: 49
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 8:24 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

First block (shared hall), i don't list the mesaure that includes common parts and just the aprox. 'fast ruler mesaure' of the flats

35 m2 covered 6m2 uncovered)
25 m2 covered 10 m2 uncovered
30 m2 covered 10 m2 uncovered
25 m2 covered

As each flat have different meause we have to find the way to choose them.

Total measure for first block 115 covered, 26 uncovered, wich represent almost 7.20% of the building and the month payment (including you said doorman but more than a doorman is like a handyman who is there whole year fixing things and do the cleaning, take care of the garden, etc) is around 150, 200 pesos.

Second Block (separate entrance)

5 flats with around 25m2 each with a 53m2 uncovered separate hall
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Tom
Advanced Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 465
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 11:01 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

So you can't really sell them for the same price. We would have to work out a way to be fare about who get's what.

You know what I mean.
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luciano pereira
Junior Member
Username: Luciano

Post Number: 50
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 7:36 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dear Tom and all of the forum i am not selling nothing i am pooling investors together, a flat in that building is around 35k no matter size or problems that could have just for they location (quiet place near beach and center) so I am running out of time that's why if the deal is not good for you that's ok I am going to be forced to put newspaper ad sunday if it is not defined who is really buying.I know with a newspaper i can pool a lot more investors but my main interest is to became a major project. Maybe is a mistake.

At this point the thread is close for me, any interested in people pm me. Let's put things in hand of experts to do requiered studies of the deal.

I really enjoy this thread but i have time to friday.

Regards
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Apartmentsba.com
Intermediate Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 247
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 8:18 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Best of luck to you Luciano. Like Roberto, 25 sq. meters is too small for me. Also, I can appreciate your rush to purchase it but I've often times seen problems result in real estate when you have to rush to purchase something without knowing everything and all the details. Also, I don't like the complication that the title deeds aren't already separated. Personally I'd pay a bit more to make sure everything is set up perfectly before I buy it. If there is one thing I've learned doing business in Argentina it is NOTHING is as easy as it would seem and the things that do have problems can take virtually forever fixing.

I'd rather lose many deals than even buy 1 property that has potential problems or that I don't understand fully. The good thing about real estate is there will always be more opportunities to buy. I wish you the best of luck with all that you do.
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luciano pereira
Member
Username: Luciano

Post Number: 51
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 9:19 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks ABA for all your comments were very very useful, you are a true gentleman and i really apreciated that you take your time to help. If I have any more information in how this is particular deal or you need any kind of help about Pinamar count with me. Best wishes and luck to you. Luciano
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peter jameson
New member
Username: Pcj

Post Number: 5
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 9:13 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi All...Very interesting thread...which lead me to an idea...I am moving to Argentina in the next year to semi-retire...although my wife is from Chubut and she would like to be close to family...I would not be averse to moving to the Atlantic Coast...I might be interested in maybe putting together a consortium with people of different vocational backgrounds...mine is in construction which could be benificial with respect to property maintainance and management...Other partners could include lawyers, real estate professionals etc.
Just an idea...any feedback positive or negative would be appreciated. Thanks...Pete.
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peter jameson
New member
Username: Pcj

Post Number: 6
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Friday, November 23, 2007 - 9:17 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Forgot to mention...being that The Costa Atlantica is a tourist destination a Travel Professional wouldnn't hurt either...Roberto...:-)
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Apartmentsba.com
Advanced Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 256
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 12:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Peter,

Just my advice (which may not be worth anything to you) but I've found in real estate try not to partner with anyone. If you have the finances, and you have researched and done your due diligence and the deal looks solid, always try to go it alone. Partnering on real estate deals is complicated because you have various issues that a simple contract can't begin to cover. I've seen family members that partnered on real estate deals argue on deals so imagine perfect strangers. There are so many issues that can come up, especially on rental properties so my advice is always try to go it alone when you can.

This advice isn't just relative to real estate either. It is with any business. If you have done your due diligence, made a solid business plan and you believe in your heart it will work, try to avoid partners. I remember many years ago when I was putting together my business plan I pitched it to several lawyers, banks and a few "rain makers" I knew in the USA. The interesting thing was every single one wanted to invest in the company and idea. That was when I knew that I had to find a way to do it myself. Even though "partnering" and taking less risk from a financial standpoint might have been smart, I knew in my heart that I had a business model that would work if I worked hard. That proved to be true.

I have partnered on real estate deals before but it's been few and far between and when I have, I have negotiated the exclusive rights to decide when I want to sell as well as a few other things. Still, I've only partnered a few times and it was with people I trusted with my life. (Not complete strangers).

Also, from my experience working and living in Argentina I'll point out that you shouldn't "partner" with strangers. A consortium sounds like a good idea if you have a long-term working relationship with people in specialized fields but grouping together with strangers is just not a good idea in South America. You will find a lot of lawyers, accountants, builders, real estate professionals, bankers, etc. simply aren't reliable or really know what they are doing. So the better strategy is taking the time to work with those that are truthworthy.

There are no shortcuts or really efficiencies in the business environment in Argentina that exist in first world countries like the USA or UK. Everything is a real struggle here in Argentina and one of the most frustrating things about doing business here. You have to be 100 X more careful before doing something here in Argentina. Most people that don't do business here or lived here any length of time have any idea what I'm talking about or probably think I'm exaggerating but talk to those in the "know" like Roberto and he can probably confirm all of this.

I hope that helps. Good luck.
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peter jameson
New member
Username: Pcj

Post Number: 7
Registered: 8-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks ABA...It was just a thought...your comments ring loud and clear.
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1388
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 4:52 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Peter, I think partnerships between people with such diverse backgrounds should be considered with an extra dose of cautiosness as there are cultural differences involved. However, your basic idea of pooling resources together is a good one. I wouldn't be surpised if some members here start to get acquainted with each other and end up in some kind of business venture down the road.
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Keith Mangan
New member
Username: Kreation

Post Number: 10
Registered: 9-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 9:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Peter;

If you have it in mind to come down and start some development I may be of some use to you at some stage.I do 3D Architectural images for developments and concept designs.If you were planning on a knock and build; or a refurb Job;any sort of development as a matter of fact; the projects I do can help future customers see the development before it is built; getting investors and that all important capital in before it has to be spent.
I'm based in Capital so if I could be of any use feel free to contact me.

Good luck with the move
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luciano pereira
Member
Username: Luciano

Post Number: 52
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 10:52 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dear Roberto, Keith and all people from the forum, may be this is an ukward question but I don't quite understand the diverse background remarkand - cultural differences involved, i understand that in every day things exists but I never have a problem before talking about business, all your experience would be great as a guide to offer a better service to my customers from abroad.

About this particular Pinamar Real Estate Opportunity I want to post my experience about it:

1º My main job is as a lawyer and I am not even close a Real Estate expert as some people in this forum - as A.B.A. - so even I have all the knowledge about avoiding red tape, doing the right legal task needed in this kind of things I certainly still don't developed the whole business sence and trade-off to have in mind pooling people.

2º My 1st mistake: i really have the desire of having part of a condo for rental or having an inexpensive place near beach, that's why i saw every deal in that perspective, wrong! This flats was not right for that task as needed a lot of work but as the holiday season is so close there is not enough time to have them repaired. So i think next time I am going to search for investments from april and not that late in the year. This was a great opportunity to buy block sell in parts but as I didn't see it in that way i couldn't express a clear message. My two cents: don't try to pool people until you see the deal from all corners, be prepaired and ask yourself if it is need to pool people or is better to have a loan/mortage, who are you pooling? what advantage are you earning in doing in that way? Are constructors/arquitects? What is the trade-off to have more people? Is better to have one investor per flat, or have less investors? etc. etc.

3º Second mistake: Give so many information, somebody with 'english accent' and exactly the same information in this thread contacted the real estate agent, in a clear attempt to 'took it in the *** on this deal' that's why keep your mouth shout until you have some kind of 'safety net' i did it but i certanly use next time an extra dose of caution in this area.

4º Third Mistake: If you have a clear vision you have to think in your intended audience. As mi wishes differ affect my vision i couldn't express right, is better to put the facts and listen


What was done Right (at least IMHO)

1º The best way to have honest feedback is to be honest, trying to express the pros and cons. i have a wonderful feedback and i 'virtually' met some great people. Recognize mistakes is needed i think

2º I do all the proper steps before taking a decision even i present a deal too early, there was no real harm to anyone.

3º As i give a seña i received twice the money i give to the seller because he can't take the offer because the owner didn't confirm it in time.

What i will do next time

a) If i find a deal i will try to look at the trade-offs of pooling people vs doing in your own, if you try to pool people think in what other people earn, having a flat or having an income what is more important? In one case you can offer the deal in this way: put 'x' money and i will give you 'x' plus 'y' in an certain time, i guaranty 'xxx' amount and for your safety i will do 'xxx' contract giving this property to secure the loan, etc. or i guaranty x minimum amount of rent, etc.

In the other hand if what is important is having a flat you can present the deal in a different way. For instance i want to have a flat in a condo for rent or being there, i find this flats could be interesting if not we can look others offers, somebody interested in? etc.

b) People tend to recognize effort if you do things right and often will pay a plus for that so do your homework if you trust in an investment and don't be shy to ask something back, if you put your time, you deserve something in exchange is not a excuse to have things done in other way, so as i takes effort is better to have all above the table. Who is paying for travels, who is going to pay for an architect, etc.

Life is a learning journey there is always room to improve, i appreciated all your feedback and i am willing to read more about your thoughts.

Luciano
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1396
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Luciano, in my view, you did everything right: you remained open-minded. All successfull people I met had this in common, flexibility and a desire to learn. As for the deal itself, it is just another brick on the wall.

I do not think you gave away too much information. Even if very little had been provided a casual reader -not even a member of this forum- could have researched the Pinamar area to front run you. The key in this case would be to completely secure the deal on your end (with the seller), perhaps with a small downpayment. Yes, it takes a little risk to try to do business on your own. But then you are safe.

I do not know enough about real estate to comment but as an investor I would have wanted to analyze a complete package, as opposed to bits and pieces every couple of days. Noone's mistake.

As for cultural differences or diverse backgrounds I will relate a story that may enlighten us better. On my landing in the US -back in 1991- I took a short course in Tulane University, NOLA. As part of that program all foreign students had to attend a 'cultural shock' introductory class. What I learned in that course didn't really sink in but after years and among the many things we were taught was that in America people rarely kiss each other upon welcoming and that men never kiss each other. Do you kiss your male cousins? How about your dear male friends? Of course. But if you extend the different idiosyncrasies you may end up with situations that are really akward if not outright criminal. What we know in Argentina as typical conquest of the opposite gender would dangerously border stalking in the US. I once sold specialty hand-made candies to gift stores -back in the beginning- and when my business started to grow I approached a small chain of local supermarkets. This was around 1993 and some of the marketing lingo I heard at the time wasn't common knowledge. The buyer from the chain said to me that he would only carry my candy after I pay an up front fee of USD 10,000 which he called "slotting fee" and that would only allow me to stock my candy in their warehouse. In my argentine mind, that translated into 'bribery'. And I can go on and on and on with not only my stories but the ones from all of my expat friends from countries other than Argentina. I am positive americans or any other nationals who are now residing in Argentina may have similar -sometimes funny- stories to tell.

And don't forget that doors in the US open the other way in Argentina. That has been conceived so that you can literally run out the door (as in pushing) in case of a fire.

To make a long story short, cultural differences and diverse backgrounds (same effect as in cultural differences) are *very real* should always stay on top of one's agenda when dealing with non-nationals... only if just as a courtesy. But my comment was more oriented towards Peter and it never really meant to discourage anybody.
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Paul Anthony
New member
Username: Sanluisobispo

Post Number: 4
Registered: 1-2008
Posted on Wednesday, January 02, 2008 - 8:05 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Sorry for just butting in....but Pinamar?....WHO WOULD want to buy anything there?! It's FULL of teenagers all summer long and it really isn't nicely planned and doesn't have even have HALF of the "charm" or personality that Carilo has...just a couple miles next door to it.
Save your money!

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