| Author | Message | ||
     luciano pereira Junior Member Username: Luciano Post Number: 33 Registered: 6-2007 |
Hi all, I really have a great bussiness proposal. 9 (8 to go) Flats in Pinamar (half block from the sea you can see the sea from it) and four blocks from town centre (center for american fellows) 40m2 (430 and a 1/2 ft2). Each flat is u$s20.000, If you put it to rent you can get an estimate of u$s5000 p/year wich is a great ROI IMHO. Even if you are thinking in going from vacation is a good opportunity. The man who builded them wants to sell the 9 flats at once (u$s180. 000), i want one flat for myself and want partners for this. As a lawyer i will give all my knowledge to avoid red tape and helping any other investor to have a crystal clear transaction. I wait for comments. For further information contact me at luciano(at)revista365(dot)com(dot)ar | ||
| Roberto Board Administrator Username: Admin Post Number: 1370 Registered: 12-2004 |
Luciano, this sounds like a nice deal. But the apartments are a bit smallish. Are these studios? Can you tell us more about: the apartments themsleves (or pics). yearly taxes yearly maintenance fees parking space? any other restrictions for the condo (no pets, babies, etc) Thanks. | ||
| luciano pereira Junior Member Username: Luciano Post Number: 34 Registered: 6-2007 |
Dear Roberto I am going to answer the best i can: Are these studios? Can you tell us more about: There are all studios some have a small backyard some not. the apartments themsleves (or pics). I am in Buenos Aires i promess pics and map location by monday tuesday yearly taxes This is great, the idea of being smallish is that are half block from the sea so is more like a kind of quiet beach place all taxes are payed by m2 so have really unexpensive taxes, i promise exact figures by monday but for giving an example on how unexpensive is pinamar for living compared with buenos aires some examples: (by the way tourists are charged a lot for rent) Services: Telephone per year - flat rate unlimited local calls -: $240 (pesos!) Direct.Tv (satellite tv i think is called in other places): $600 pesos per year .This is just individual contract charge if the condo get the service is even less. parking space? on entrace is a grass place non private but is far easy and secure to park in entrance yearly maintenance fees and any other restrictions for the condo (no pets, babies, etc) What i find most exciting about this deal among the price is that new owners has the possibility to define our own 'code of conduct', what we are going to do with common places and ammenities of the building. This is certain something to talk about but my main goal is to have the apartment for rental, with a bit of "team spirit" we can create the sinergy needed to add value to our flats and charge more. For instance buy a couple of deckchairs and things like that. To be 100% honest with you and in order to fully explain the nature of the operation, maintenance fees and other restrictions i need to do a kind of long remark: Here is the 'small catch' and the reason for a 33% off a) The market price for an apartment like this is at least u$s30.000, the builder is going to move abroad and want to sell it right the spot and is a bit short in cash, the units need some paint job and other minor details included in the price, at the time when we are signing for the purchase the builder, or a third company with the approval of the owners sign a contract for doing this job. For me is ok waiting two/three weeks for have the flat paint and have that kind of profit. Some people don't think the same that's why i tell you. b) As the builder is a bit short of money, he still don't do some paperwork needed to legally treat each apartment as 'separate units' that's why all buyers we are going to sign a contract giving our concent to 'separate' the units. In practical terms in the worst case this take a couple of months and have any practical difference while it's happen. I'm a lawyer and i could easily do it, i am not going to charge for it, instead i only want the commitment that every owner is going to pay in equal parts with me for intance the paint of common areas every x years, etc. My main interest is to protect my investment and i am a team player i always want to have a good relationship with other owners. Instead of having to pay a mortage i prefer to buy one or two flats with others that share more or less the same vision that i have and when i show them that is a really good investment, do the same in other place, etc. By the way i can also free of charge take care of the rental. | ||
| luciano pereira Junior Member Username: Luciano Post Number: 35 Registered: 6-2007 |
By the way this is a bit off topic, but i always open to any remarks and advises to improve my english. How I Write? Please CALL 0-800-ME-TARZAN  | ||
| Apartmentsba.com Intermediate Member Username: Saint Post Number: 233 Registered: 5-2005  |
Luciano, You mentioned you are an attorney so I assume you understand the pitfalls of buying a property or even putting money down on "separate units" when they aren't separate units. I do a LOT of real estate deals in Argentina (mostly Buenos Aires) but I've purchased in other cities in Argentina as well. Typically I've found that when a property has a big discount relative to the market there are usually reasons for this. Not always but more times then not there are reasons why the owner sells something at a fire sale price. I am NOT saying that is the case with this deal but you mentioned in your (b) that "the owner didn't do some paperwork that is needed to legally treat each unit as a separate unit". Now I know you are saying it could take a couple of months but you know what? I've seen and done alot in the real estate world here in Argentina and there is one thing I'm sure of. There is a LOT of red tape here in Argentina and things can take forever. So your speculation of "a couple of months" could turn out to take longer. If the "paperwork" isn't done it means that each unit does NOT have a separate title deed. All the units sound like they are lumped together. This is NOT ideal for investors to pool together to buy together unless you personally know all the investors. Why? Because if there is a dispute later it could cause a lot of problems and possibly you have the chance that the units won't each get a separate title deed. I work with a whole team of lawyers and many of them are from the top law firms in town. Sometimes seemingly easy issues take forever so I think investors need to keep that in mind in this sort of deal. Not to say this is a bad deal at all but I think people need to understand everything when investing in real estate in South America. Most ethical and skilled escribanos won't advise their clients to purchase until the units are legally separated and have their own title deed before putting any money in. Would the owner agree to having a third party (like the Escribano handling the sale) hold the money in trust and wait to release the funds until the paperwork is all done? Some other questions from an investor standpoint. - You mentioned 9 units. Are these units in a multiple floor building? If so, how many floors in the building? - When was this built? - Is there only one owner of the property or is it a group? Is the owner a corporation? - Does the property have any liens, encumbrances or mortgages on the property that need to be paid off first? - Will the seller be willing to list the full price of the transaction on the title deeds? - You mentioned that the units aren't broken up into individual title deeds. How many sq. meters (covered and uncovered) are listed on the current title deed? How will outdoor areas be broken down on the title deeds? Shared common outdoor areas? - Also, although you are a lawyer it would be better for investors to have their own legal counsel and Escribano so they can ensure they have THEIR best interests protected. Are you willing to allow each investor to use his/her own Escribano on the closing? - Do you have to-scale floor plans for each unit? Is each unit identical? If not, which are better units? Does one have an advantage over another? If so, who gets to choose which unit they get? - Is the area zoned residential only or commercial or residential/commercial? - What else is on that block? Is it all residential? Is there empty land in that area that can be built on or any buildings that can be built that will block the ocean view? That to me seems to be a huge advantage but is there a possibility the view could be blocked or partially blocked? - Is there a realtor fee? I assume not since you are pooling investors together. - Is there a stamp tax or will it be waived? - Again, can the owner wait to get the boleto or the full payment until all the paperwork is done to divide out the title deeds for each property? - Is there a pool or room to build a pool? - You mentioned potential cash flow from the unit via rentals. What is the average typical weekly rent in Pinamar during high season? Also, do you plan to have one property manager for all the units or is every man/investor for himself to rent it out? If there is one property manager, how will the rentals get divided between 9 units? what will be the deciding factor whose units are rented first? What will the property manager fee be? Will he/she pay the monthly bills as almost all the investors will NOT live in Pinamar? If so, what is their monthly fee? - Will the building have a doorman? Is there security? What common expenses do you estimate per month? - Is the area easily able to get ALL utilities including phone service, cable service, high speed internet, cellphone coverage, water, electricity, gas? - What is the heating and water system? Is it central hot water or individual hot water? Heating central or individual? - Do you have a Google Satellite map of the location? - Do you have a spreadsheet with all the expenses and closing costs including legal fees, taxes, closing costs, possible stamp taxes? - Do you have an estimated net rate of return spreadsheet on the cash flow potential via rentals including all monthly expenses including cable, internet, phone, electricity, gas, condo fees, shared expenses (including gardener)? These are just some of the many questions I'd have before investing in a project. I could be interested but I'd have concerns on the paperwork not being proper. That is a big red flag when I buy real estate. You mentioned alot of the positives of the deal but you didn't mention many negatives. What are the top 5 positives of this deal? What are the top 5 NEGATIVE things about this property in your eyes? (besides the title deeds aren't individually separated). Cheers. | ||
| Tom Advanced Member Username: Diverdown48 Post Number: 453 Registered: 6-2006  |
This sounds like a good deal. I have 10K I could use if someone wanted to buy an apt with Me. Being a lawyer I realize that most of Apts questions would have to be answered before any purchase is made. I do know this, Pinamar is a beautiful little place with possibly the best beach in Argentina. | ||
| Tom Advanced Member Username: Diverdown48 Post Number: 454 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hey Apts Other than showing how brilliant you are how many of these questions do you think Luciano knows right off the top of his head. Any sale of land in Argentina I have heard of has to have an Escribano to do the paperwork and it is his duty to make sure there are no encumberances on the property. Zoning laws? Most officials in small towns in Argentina don't know what a zoning law is. Will the building have a doorman? Are you kidding me? Is there security? Yes, it's called policia. Does it have a view of the ocean. Anybody who cares about that probably should not get into this deal. My first thought was who cares. There are only a few million people out there who can afford to do this deal who would be interested in this property whether it has a view of the ocean or not. I am raising my hand here. Most of your questions are a bit much don't you think. Some are self answering. Anybody involved would be entitle to have their own attorney. A no brainer. We are not talking about a multimillon dollar deal. Yes, be cautious and get the questions answered but don't shoot the messenger. Some of your questions need to be answered before money changes hands. But not all of them for me to be in. It sounds like our friend has found a good deal, not uncommon in Argentina. If I am sounding a bit sarcastic, I apologize, but why should this man have to answer all the questions until he finds out if anyone is interested. He wants to have a place close to the ocean in Pinamar. If Pinamar were on the same type beach in the US, we would be talking several hundred thousand dollars if not more. You ever heard the term, Location, Location, Location. | ||
| Apartmentsba.com Intermediate Member Username: Saint Post Number: 234 Registered: 5-2005 |
Tom, I didn't post to "show how brilliant I am". Really that has NOTHING to do with it. Those questions are fundamental and basic questions for any real estate investment. Most people that buy real estate are investors and yes asking if a building will have a doorman and if they will have security DO matter as those are monthly expenses and affect rate of return. In some developments the charge for a doorman and security are expensive so YES it does matter. Yes, it matters if it has an ocean view and if it's a rental property that IS a big deal. An ocean view is something that is key for marketing a vacation rental property. No, I don't think those questions "are a bit much". Really they are basic questions that Luciano I'm sure can easily answer. No, we aren't talking about a multimillion dollar deal but then again, the fundamentals shouldn't really change whether you are talking about $10,000 or $1 million. Due diligence should be done no matter how much you are investing. That is common sense. Why should he answer these questions? Because when you come on to a public message board and solicit money for an investment than you should be able to answer these BASIC questions. Yes, I know all about location, location, location. Have you heard about due diligence, due diligence and due diligence? I'm not the one posting things like "I have 10k..anyone want to split an apartment with me". Again, the amount you are investing shouldn't really matter. You should ask the same questions I asked whether you are investing $10,000 or $1 million. And if you aren't, you're a fool. (are you really an attorney???). Investing is investing and gambling is gambling.... There might be a few million people that can afford an affordable investment like this but then again there were a few million people that also invested in real estate in the USA and didn't really understand what they were getting themselves into so yes, these simple and basic questions I threw out there are really simple and ANY investor in this or any similar project would need to have these answers. If you think these are not basic questions then I really question your judgment as an investor. Who is "shooting the messenger"? Certainly not me. I'm not even saying this is a bad investment. All I'm asking are basic questions. Again, when you come on a public message board speaking of a great investment potential and soliciting funds from strangers than ALL of these questions will be easily answered and guess what? If he can answer them and all of them make sense then he will easily get the investors needed for this. Good luck. | ||
| WTMendoza.com Junior Member Username: Welcometomendoza Post Number: 50 Registered: 7-2007  |
Tom, with all due respect for Luciano, whom I've ineracted with on his web knowledge, and is a great and earnst guy, ABA puts out important basic questions, epecially since this particular deal is a little weak with apt size, builder financial woes, and lack of key information yet. Even if the offering is not completly solid yet since still being put together, ABA has probably already helped with the cause with the right kind of questions which even in US and Europe and rest of world will come back to haunt a buyer and a seller if they don't understand specifically what is being offered and the options for follow through..cheers | ||
| Roberto Board Administrator Username: Admin Post Number: 1371 Registered: 12-2004 |
I actually liked some of Mike's questions. I would have never thought of these issues. I would like to see some of his questions answered before I consider this any further. Although I agree with Tom that the security questions may have less weight in a property like this, Mike's legal concerns need to be addressed. I also think it is important to be able to determine the surroundings and how future projects may or may not impact this property. My main problem is that such small units would only be suitable for young crowds during summer time and we all know how the apartments will look like by March... unless young couples. | ||
| Apartmentsba.com Intermediate Member Username: Saint Post Number: 235 Registered: 5-2005 |
Roberto, I wasn't asking about security as I'm concerned about security issues...i was asking from a monthly fee point of view. Some areas security guards in the block or development have a high monthly fee so that is why I asked it. Sometimes investors get confused because they see a cheap/affordable fee for the property but they don't consider ALL the monthly fees and it's VERY important to consider ALL fees involved including utilities and any other type of common fees from the owners of the development. So that is why I asked about security NOT from a safety standpoint but a financial fee each month. Cheers. | ||
| Tom Advanced Member Username: Diverdown48 Post Number: 455 Registered: 6-2006 |
A lot of questions have to be answered. I am not concerned about the young crowd. I remember my fraternity days. Enough said about that. My point is someone with Apts questions and his expertise I am sure he knows that if he is really interested in the deal they will be answered. There is only one person in the world I would hand $10K to with no questions, my daughter. | ||
| luciano pereira Junior Member Username: Luciano Post Number: 36 Registered: 6-2007 |
ApartmentsBA, What great questions! I think this post alone deserves to put in another thread. I mean it. Q: You mentioned you are an attorney so I assume you understand the pitfalls of buying a property or even putting money down on "separate units" when they aren't separate units. I do a LOT of real estate deals in Argentina (mostly Buenos Aires) but I've purchased in other cities in Argentina as well. A: Yes I am an attorney, also a teacher in law at U.B.A. and work part time for the service of justice in B.A. Even i don`t know personally you have the most top remarks from people abroad for giving A+ service. So i really apreciated your participation in the thread. Two things with this issue a) Pinamar has more than 600.000 tourist per year but is a town of 50.000 people, i have with my fiancee a magazine there that`s why if i envolved in any problem i will probably cannot do more business nor work as lawyer in my whole life that`s why i put my reputation in every aspect of my work. b) You are 100% correct you NEVER have to put money down without proper asistance from an accountant, lawyer and escribano and MOST IMPORTANT, lots of sense. Correct me if I am wrong by the term 'pitfalls' i understand weaknesses, well if you get something 33% cheaper have some issues, but the issues are not even close related to ownership, and with the proper legal issues solved you can rent the flat in very little time, do the rest of the work could takes different time depending in your personal knowledge of the place, any from an small or mid sized town will agree that red tape is often weaker when people know you. By the way "las divisiones de condominio" are very common. Any can go to an argentinian civil code and read arount article 2692 A: Typically I've found that when a property has a big discount relative to the market there are usually reasons for this. Not always but more times then not there are reasons why the owner sells something at a fire sale price. I am NOT saying that is the case with this deal but you mentioned in your (b) that "the owner didn't do some paperwork that is needed to legally treat each unit as a separate unit". B: Of course is like buying an used car from a lot, you know that salesman give you some comments like is all cool - but you know that you have to put that 300 bucks in brakes. This is the same if you have to pay for a lawyer to do the work the 33% benefit is going to be reduced drastically as if i have to get a loan for buying the whole building i have to pay the bank at least three times the amount of money in a mortage that's why i prefer to put my work and make a team. To make a team work you need to give and get something. A: Now I know you are saying it could take a couple of months but you know what? I've seen and done alot in the real estate world here in Argentina and there is one thing I'm sure of. There is a LOT of red tape here in Argentina and things can take forever. So your speculation of "a couple of months" could turn out to take longer. If the "paperwork" isn't done it means that each unit does NOT have a separate title deed. All the units sound like they are lumped together. This is NOT ideal for investors to pool together to buy together unless you personally know all the investors. Why? Because if there is a dispute later it could cause a lot of problems and possibly you have the chance that the units won't each get a separate title deed. A) To avoid disputes there will be agreements if agreements fails there is mediators, if mediators fails you can go to an arbiter instead of go to justice. For me the WORST people to do bussiness is the ones you are more related for instance family, the biggest fights i saw, i mean really nasty dog fights where divorces and brothers fighting for their heritage, etc you know why? because the money is not an issue feelings are. I think different in this point when the problems is just money is a lot more easy. a)I work with a whole team of lawyers and many of them are from the top law firms in town. Sometimes seemingly easy issues take forever so I think investors need to keep that in mind in this sort of deal. b) Ofcourse the bumper sticker said "s word" happens, but if you are treating with people investing is a bit different just put" clause that you use an arbiter in case of dispute, and for the paperwork finished depends in your goal if you are ok being sure is realy yours I mean you legally OWN the property and you can rent or go on vacation there and have no problem to wait or not interested for instance to get a loan and mortage the flat. I mean i can wait for such things for 10k. I often use an arbiter to avoid the traditional justice system. q) Not to say this is a bad deal at all but I think people need to understand everything when investing in real estate in South America. Most ethical and skilled escribanos won't advise their clients to purchase until the units are legally separated and have their own title deed before putting any money in. a)That's right sort of, more Escribanos said that's not free i mean if you have that kind of "inconvinience" - big or small depens on you - you have to fight the price (of course i want to buy in less possible money pointing out that kind of things) if you get rid this kind of problems it's easy just put 35k and that's it. It is just the difference from going to mac station in B.A. and pay three times you pay in b&h, of course that travel with the computer is less practical but confort is always expensive. a) Would the owner agree to having a third party (like the Escribano handling the sale) hold the money in trust and wait to release the funds until the paperwork is all done? b) Would You accept something like this... i think not for that price, if you pay more for sure. What I think it could be done is give here a serious offer and start right away doing the paperwork trying to have it in the most short time possible. I think in that case could have more sense put 10k more and buy something else, and for God sake hope you have good neighbors that don't complain to put 10 bucks to repair the washing machine, while you are losing customers for that matter. (to be continued in next message) } | ||
| Roberto Board Administrator Username: Admin Post Number: 1372 Registered: 12-2004 |
>...i was asking from a monthly fee point of view. Got it. | ||
| Tom Advanced Member Username: Diverdown48 Post Number: 456 Registered: 6-2006 |
In all do respect Apts. Your questions are not all basic in this circumstance. If you are familiar with Pinamar I would be very surprised if any of the apartments there have doormen. It is a small seacoast village close to the horn, as I call it, of Argentina, near the waters of Bahia Sanbaronbonne. With Luciano's first response to Roberto it is obvious to a reasonalbe person that he doesn't have all the answers. I think what he is saying, hey, I have found a good investment and I'm trying to put together a group of investors to buy it. A small group for a small purchase. He is volunteering to do a lot of the work but probalby not to the extent you are asking. Maybe you could help him find out some of the answers after giving your word as a gentleman that you will not snake him out of the deal if he gives you the name of the seller and the exact location. I would want a written document before I divulged that type of information to protect you and him but who knows what he is willing to do. I would suggest he not give it out here for all to see for the reason stated. And no I do not agree with your statement that he should know all of that information. If he has the idea and finds out enough people are interested for him to do the amount of work your questions reqire, then it would be worth it to him to find out some of answers. He is a lawyer, Abraham Lincoln said, A lawyers time is his stock in trade. For some who aren't familiar with the phrase, it means a lawyer is selling his learned time for money, that is all he has to sell. Between you and him, If you both go into it than I think I am going to see if anyone is interested in my offer for one unit and let you guys do the work. You seem to know what you are doing. But I will have an Argentine lawyer's opinion on the deal once the paper work is finished. Gracias amigo | ||
| Tom Advanced Member Username: Diverdown48 Post Number: 457 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hello Luciano, I have read your last post, I think, anyway I agree with you and spoken like a true lawyer. | ||
| Tom Advanced Member Username: Diverdown48 Post Number: 458 Registered: 6-2006 |
In a legal agreement that would have to be prepared you spell out what you intend to do and you put in caveats to handle the questions. We disbar lawyers in the US also. In simple terms you have an written agreement between the buyers who then have an agreement with the seller. The agreement with the buyer says some of these questions we have must be answered by him. Some have to be agreed upon by us. We might put togehter a home owners agreement that would have legally binding requirements that if someone won't pay $10 for their share of the washer or dryer, whatever, the payment bears interest until paid with in a reasonalbe time and if not paid a lien is placed on his property which will allow you to go to court and sell his property or seize his rent or what ever is ageed amoungst the parties. As to what happens to the common areas, the homeowners association votes on that which of course is written into the original buyers agreement. | ||
| luciano pereira Junior Member Username: Luciano Post Number: 37 Registered: 6-2007 |
- You mentioned 9 units. Are these units in a multiple floor building? If so, how many floors in the building? - When was this built? Plans and phots would save another long message by monday/ tuesday i will give you some photos. - Is there only one owner of the property or is it a group? Is the owner a corporation? Owned by one owner sell by a real estate company. - Does the property have any liens, encumbrances or mortgages on the property that need to be paid off first? None - Will the seller be willing to list the full price of the transaction on the title deeds? I don't think he is willing but at same point we can force it ;) - You mentioned that the units aren't broken up into individual title deeds. How many sq. meters (covered and uncovered) are listed on the current title deed? How will outdoor areas be broken down on the title deeds? Shared common outdoor areas? I am going to scan the title - Also, although you are a lawyer it would be better for investors to have their own legal counsel and Escribano so they can ensure they have THEIR best interests protected. Are you willing to allow each investor to use his/her own Escribano on the closing? If they don't use their own lawyers i will feel a bit afraid is a no brainer - Do you have to-scale floor plans for each unit? Is each unit identical? If not, which are better units? Does one have an advantage over another? If so, who gets to choose which unit they get? if you are really interested i would do all that. - Is the area zoned residential only or commercial or residential/commercial? Residential only, but i want to re check and scan - What else is on that block? Is it all residential? Is there empty land in that area that can be built on or any buildings that can be built that will block the ocean view? That to me seems to be a huge advantage but is there a possibility the view could be blocked or partially blocked? All residential, the empty land is the entrance instead of have tails have grass but is the entrance of the building. The view is not in ocean view is . i think photos would be better. - Is there a realtor fee? I assume not since you are pooling investors together. I am pooling investors because i didn't want to take a loan their is a real estate company involved. - Is there a stamp tax or will it be waived? - Again, can the owner wait to get the boleto or the full payment until all the paperwork is done to divide out the title deeds for each property? http://www.apartmentsba.com/argentina-real-estate- consulting-&-property-management-69/importance-of- using-an-ethical-lawyer-in-argentina-real-estate-8 5/ - Is there a pool or room to build a pool? We are talking 20k i hope you don't expect to much and photos or organize a trip would be help. - You mentioned potential cash flow from the unit via rentals. What is the average typical weekly rent in Pinamar during high season? Also, do you plan to have one property manager for all the units or is every man/investor for himself to rent it out? If there is one property manager, how will the rentals get divided between 9 units? what will be the deciding factor whose units are rented first? What will the property manager fee be? Will he/she pay the monthly bills as almost all the investors will NOT live in Pinamar? If so, what is their monthly fee? - Will the building have a doorman? Is there security? What common expenses do you estimate per month? - Do you have an estimated net rate of return spreadsheet on the cash flow potential via rentals including all monthly expenses including cable, internet, phone, electricity, gas, condo fees, shared expenses (including gardener)? i made my own numbers i will share i don't offer free market research. All that answers need to be treated by the possible owners afterwars by private mail, im or in person. - Is the area easily able to get ALL utilities including phone service, cable service, high speed internet, cellphone coverage, water, electricity, gas? Of course - What is the heating and water system? Is it central hot water or individual hot water? Heating central or individual? Photos i will send there is no central services - Do you have a Google Satellite map of the location? No - Do you have a spreadsheet with all the expenses and closing costs including legal fees, taxes, closing costs, possible stamp taxes? I have my trustful notebook (not computer binder i mean) What are the top 5 positives of this deal? - price - location - roi - new opportunity to make new deals - pinamar is fun! What are the top 5 NEGATIVE things about this property in your eyes? (besides the title deeds aren't individually separated). - I afraid some buyers are just going to buy for selling very quick i hope we can do an agreement to have an option to buy first. -- ideal for rent but if you want to put Hansgrohe and a toto toilet nobody is going to pay you more at least local people so you have to decide if you want it for rent or for you - for my taste it need a bit of work in common areas - I don't think it's the cup of tea for everyone for some people 10k don't worth the trouble. - buying something near the beach makes you want to catch a wave and i admit it lead with us lawyers, escribanos and red tape sucks! | ||
| luciano pereira Junior Member Username: Luciano Post Number: 38 Registered: 6-2007 |
Let me do this thread shorter: - I really like the place IMHO has potential If all legal aspects are covered, how many of you would be seriously interested in? If there are enough interested i will put to work if not i will take another path. Tom you really said what i was thinking. i certainly don't have all the answers i just wanted to know if it is worth to find them. “Be polite to all, but intimate with few.” Thomas Jefferson | ||
| Tom Advanced Member Username: Diverdown48 Post Number: 459 Registered: 6-2006 |
I am interested for sure. I would love to have a place in Pinamar for the beach even though it is not on the beach it is close enough. | ||
| DAN New member Username: Crazygaucho Post Number: 24 Registered: 7-2006 |
Hey Luciano I going to drive to Loberias monday or by the end of the week, do you have an address so if I have time I'll check the area. how far is it from mar del plata or necochea ? gracias | ||
| Apartmentsba.com Intermediate Member Username: Saint Post Number: 236 Registered: 5-2005 |
Hi Luciano, Thanks for your answers and the nice comment you made about me and my firm. It's always nice to hear something positive like that so I appreciate it. Again, I wasn't trying to post this was a bad deal. The questions I presented in this forum were to provide a bit of a guideline what types of questions people should be asking if they want to invest in real estate in South America. I wasn't even saying that you needed to answer them publicly. My point was to educate people reading a bit about the general types of things you should ask. The biggest mistake I've seen people make in real estate is they buy a property (land, house, apartment) only based on the price and if it's so cheap they lose a bit of common sense and don't ask any/enough questions. Like I mentioned, you should be asking the same types of questions regardless of how much you are investing. Even if you can afford to lose the money it's still a good idea to go into a real estate investment knowing EVERYTHING from the beginning. I don't know you but you seem like a gentleman. I've always believed that intelligent discussion on public message boards benefits everyone. I agree with you about never doing business with family. Here in Argentina I've seen a lot of families fight over money, deals, etc. Personally on real estate I don't like partnering much because there is the potential for disputes. Yes, you can go to arbitration but EVERYTHING seems to take forever here. There are so many chances for dispute in real estate deals...especially one where the title deed will change from the moment you are buying it to after. Disputes can arise between people wanting to sell out vs people wanting to split up the deeds. You can have all the contracts ahead of time you want but just one person can hold up a sale or potential sale if you are all owners before the title deed gets split up. It sounds like it could be a good possibility as really all of Argentina is becoming more well known with foreigners and I believe land prices will go up in most areas. Especially unique areas. I did the same strategy a few years ago. I started buying up land in Punta del Este and the same land I bought 3 years ago has doubled in value and I think over the next decade it could skyrocket as well as there is no more land for sale in the area of La Barra I bought in. I'd be interested in the deal and I'd be happy to meet you Luciano. PM me and we can arrange to meet in my office if you want. I most likely can get all the rest of the investors you need or I can maybe buy the rest of the units with you if the paperwork issue can be resolved. I've always looking to acquire good real estate in Argentina in good areas if (a) it can provide a good cash flow via rentals and (b) has significant capital appreciation opportunity. This deal sounds like it might have both. For your own benefit and possibly that of your investors you might also want to check what the zoning limits will allow you to built up. What the FOT is. That is..how many floors could you build up. Some of my most lucrative and profitable deals in Argentina were buying existing properties on land and then knocking down the house or building and building up. The potential for $$$$$ is so huge in those kind of deals. Much more so then simply buying to use the existing units so you should check that as well. In one situation I bought an old building in Palermo Viejo on a good sized piece of land and I'm getting ready to build a 6 floor - 24 apartment unit on the property. Yes, the building/land was expensive but the profit on that deal was astronomical. So find out how many floors you can build on the land. You can possibly sell the entire thing and make a fortune. Threads like this are informative for the general public and I believe that is why Roberto made this board. Cheers all. | ||
| Simon Fawkes Junior Member Username: Expatba Post Number: 46 Registered: 1-2007  |
ABA is spot on with the questions that a potential investor should be asking. There's so much scope for things to go wrong or for things not to be quite what they seem - things that may be taken for granted in other countries, for example. Luciano, I too am potentially interested in buying one or more of the units if the paperwork (i.e. unit separation) issue can be resolved. I would also add a more general point that I would never buy a property without seeing it first and checking out the building and its locale with my own eyes. Anyone who doesn't is potentially asking for trouble. | ||
| Tom Advanced Member Username: Diverdown48 Post Number: 460 Registered: 6-2006 |
Luciano I doubt that I will be down to Buenos Aires until after the Super Bowl(February 2008). I have been talking to Roberto here about having another gathering of posters in Buenos Aires. Maybe in February. As I stated before I am definitely interested. You have 9 apartments which if sold to 9 individuals would make a good democratic one appartment one vote homeowners association. That way no one person would be able to control the property. With Apts, Dan, you, me and Possibly Roberto who appeared to be interested also we would have 5 people. I think it would be easy to get 4 more. If the homeowners agreement is well crafted into an airtight contract I see no problem for a group of people who do not know each other to go into the venture together. How many people have bought homes subject to a homeowners association rules that knew each other before they bought? Let's just say a lot. I have been to Pinamar and love the place. I have a couple of photos I took there which I will have to look for and If there is a way I can post them here I will do so. I think it is one of the most desirous places to live in all of Argentina and vacation at. I have lived in Argentina and know what it is like to try and get a place to stay near the beach in the summer and other holidays as well. And these were families going to the beach, not just kids. Are the apartments one bedroom or just efficiencies? It matters to me only in the sense a one bedroom would allow a family of 3 or 4 to rent with the parents in the br and the children on a fold out couch. Either way I am still interested. I was actually able to get a commitment on a 5mil land deal there from the sellers giving potential buyers time to get their money together for 90 days without putting down a deposit. Your guy may not be willing to give us that long but possibly he would understand there is an investment group you are putting together that wants to know for sure before they commit that this is the real thing. If not 90 days maybe4 60 or even 45 could be enough. With an experienced lawyer who understands the ramifications of trust that a lawyer assumes, which as you know is a higher standard than the common man, and Apts experience in real estate there I would be in without seeing the property if the process moves along before I get down there. By the way, Thanks for bringing this to our attention. | ||
| Tom Advanced Member Username: Diverdown48 Post Number: 461 Registered: 6-2006 |
In looking at some of my other emails which sometimes takes me a while to get to I saw this blog about renting in Pinamar http://www.travelsur.net/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?2/2222 (Message edited by admin on November 11, 2007) | ||
| AnuncioArgentina.com New member Username: Anuncioargentinacom Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2007 |
Luciano, I´m def. interested in this deal, please keep me posted whenever you gets some more info! | ||
| luciano pereira Junior Member Username: Luciano Post Number: 39 Registered: 6-2007 |
Hi to all of you, as usual sorry for any error in my english and for the long silence. I am doing my best effort to have all things done in the best way before we do our first move as Smokey Bear says 'safety first'. Jokes aside as ABA says you have to do a lot of research before jump in in this kind of things, real estate salesman are not exactly priests and often well know for their honesty - I mean lack - that's why i never tell i am a lawyer or in the case of Pinamar where more people know me i send other people instead of me to 'check' his behaviour. In this case the salesman is a gentleman but not very easy going and also hasen't got all the required information. -- let's jump to the important stuff --- I just called the escribana (female noun for escribano = notary public = fedatario - fedatario because his/her put his/her faith in the legal act, [put faith = dar fe = amtsfertigung in german]) she is going to call me back but his clerk told me some things that were different from what the sales man told me: THERE EXISTS PLANS for instance. I want to have the whole picture before still bothering you but this deal is looking better and better i just want to 'triple-check' some information that people nearby the building told to my fiancee yesterday. By the way i received a HUGE amount of mails about this subject all all very colaborative and with the best manners I've ever seen! As some of you knows besides been a lawyer I also have with my fiancee a magazine and a starting company in Pinamar, if 5 percent of your feedback became in real projects i am thinking in quit my practice in BA and dedicated full time in Pinamar and Carilo. --- Some a bit off topic remarks -------------------------------- 1º Go to ABA site - i don't endorse it or meet him personally but his site have a lot of great information in plain english - no obscure jargon there. 2º There are other opportunities in Pinamar and Carilo if you are satisfied with the result of this deal maybe we can do more thing in the future. Also as the amount of participant in this thread make me think that would be more than 9 people interested, not being part of a deal is not the end of the world, other deals would be around the corner. So if roberto agree this we can keep this thread alive, clean it up (i mean instead of Luciano said, ABA said, Tom, etc clean it all and put it in a more logical structure) or even better keep it like this kind of brain storming notebook and have a separete thread/blog with the whole issues covered in bigger detail. --- Insanely off topic ------------------------------- 3º You are all great persons even if this deal will not be closed i want to meet you in person and even i offer to prepare an asado some day. 4º Thank you Keith! you are a true artist! a Frank Lloyd Wright in silicon steroids! 5º Just for Sean (wtmendoza) Do you need further help with your webpage? | ||
| luciano pereira Junior Member Username: Luciano Post Number: 40 Registered: 6-2007 |
NEW INFORMATION: I just call to Pinamar and the flats are booked for us until next monday. Now i can calm down a bit, and fight the price also i am going to ask for bugets to put the building in value - i hope this is how is say in english - in that case we can buy it and do the works ourselves. Stay tuned. | ||
| luciano pereira Junior Member Username: Luciano Post Number: 41 Registered: 6-2007 |
Just two more things: a) I just talk with some friends of mine and i have some serious request for rent. b) I received by mail and in a moment of softness my geekness was stronger than my brain and I installed osx leopard, bad choice while you are working, my digital camara an also my card reader is not getting alone fine with the new cat as soon i can tame the kitty i am going to dump the photos to hard disk and then i will post it. | ||
| luciano pereira Junior Member Username: Luciano Post Number: 42 Registered: 6-2007 |
More news (and snapshots): [very long text] - I solved photo problems link at bottom with explanation As this is getting more serious i want to answer again aba questions with all his usefull questions and other more details. I want to give crystal clear details so who are interested can get a whole picture of the situation, some things are different and talking with escribana and an architect give me a more logical explanation to what the salesman told me, i just want to see the papers with escribana to be 100% sure that are ok. But at least for me now the deal looks better. I advice read very carefully this message: I put numbers in order to identify questions better, any further question please use the same system 1º Would the owner agree to having a third party (like the Escribano handling the sale) hold the money in trust and wait to release the funds until the paperwork is all done? I am working towards that i think that is possible i want to be competely honest, owner have some cash flow problems because is working in a new project. That's why he sell it 'in block' as he need money to solve paperwork i offered my services instead of doing a first payment and use the money to pay another lawyer to complete that task. For me is a win-win situation because i have more control of the paperwork and in the process i can 'shell out' a bit less money for the flat i want to buy. I hope nobody have problems with this, i tell you this sistuation in order to have facts straight, i prefer to lost this particular deal than lost your trust. There's always another deal around the corner so if someone have a problem with this issue please let me know. To sum it up, is very likly that when the deal is closed every owner is going to have their own title for each flat and all paperwork done at the same moment. Depending in what escribana tell me by friday i can even make a timeline. 2º - You mentioned 9 units. Are these units in a multiple floor building? If so, how many floors in the building? All 9 units are in Planta Baja (Ground floor) and also have two more floors, there are around 27 flats in total. The 9 flats are separated in two building blocks. The first block - closer to sea in order to identify it - is in the common hall, the other ones have a separate private entrance 3º When was this built? 35 years ago, builder sell the two upper floors (by stair) and keep 9 flats for directly rent it. 4º - Is there only one owner of the property or is it a group? Is the owner a corporation? Talking specific about the 9 flats, the land was bought by an individual, and that land was later bought by the constructor (so in fact the owner is a corporation) 5º Does the property have any liens, encumbrances or mortgages on the property that need to be paid off first? No, there are some tax debts that are going to be paid by the seller not the buyers. 6º Will the seller be willing to list the full price of the transaction on the title deeds? I don't think so because the price is separated in two parts a) The flat price b) A contract to have the flats put in value and repaired (paint, etc). Have in mind that the building is half block from sea and any who knows flats in this kind of area knows that need from time to time this kind of work. To sum it up from the total you and me we are going to have the escritura for X money plus a contract (if you want and i prefer signed in the escribania at the same time)for the rest of the money giving both the total amount of the purchase. Factura from the builder for that services is another issue. In order to have peace of mind about how the works is going to be done and having in mind that none of you is from the area i offer to be legally responsible about them. (for me is not a burden is even an element to pressure more the builder and have a bigger control about the works) 7º You mentioned that the units aren't broken up into individual title deeds. How many |
