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Paul Ghidossi
New member
Username: Chascomus

Post Number: 9
Registered: 7-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 4:21 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

HOW TO SEND MONEY FROM THE US TO BUENOS AIRES
I just thought I'd write this note to inform some of you.
First of all, don't even try to go to the banks here and ask "can I open an account?". They will look at you funny and ask you for some form of residency AND monthly utility bills. And it won't matter if you go to an American Bank or other "English" sounding bank as they CANNOT open accounts for foreigner. IF you do get some for of local I.D. you CAN open an account, but you WON'T be able to wire anything for a period of 6 months!
SO MANY Americans ask me this question and I have to tell them all the same answer: There is no way to do it through a bank UNLESS you make B.A. your resident. There are other ways, through exchange houses and "financers". Some of these entities are not trustworthy, while others have a good track record.
If you have any more questions, FEEL FREE TO ASK!
www.hereicomeargentina.com
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1006
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Well... if someone gets a DNI, doesn't this means that such person has residence in Argentina?

And if you can open an account... have you explored with your banks *repatriation" of funds where you pay no fees, have high limits and can be done monthly for an unlimited period of time? Why not ask them about transfers between foreign personal accounts to "caja de ahorro" personal accounts under the repatriation form and if you get any positive answer please let us know.

(Message edited by admin on February 23, 2007)
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Riyad Anabtawi
Intermediate Member
Username: Riyada

Post Number: 143
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 4:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

In what way are "some of these entities not trustworthy" ?
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Simon Fawkes
New member
Username: Expatba

Post Number: 7
Registered: 1-2007


Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 5:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

By law the only requirement for opening a bank account in Argentina is to have a CDI number (tax number), proof of address and a passport (or national identity document). But different banks have their own specific account-opening requirements and often require far more than this. However it's worth asking around.

If you already have banking facilities with a global bank that has branches in Argentina (e.g. Citibank, HSBC etc.) then the Argentiniean division can usually be persuaded to open an account for you if you obtain a letter of introduction from your local branch in your home country.

I hope this helps.

Simon Fawkes
Author, The Complete Guide To Real Estate Investment in Argentina, ISBN 1430303980, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1430303980
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Apartmentsba.com
Intermediate Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 136
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Thursday, February 22, 2007 - 5:36 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Keep in mind that you can go to 5 different banks and get 5 different answers. Some require a DNI number to open an account while others can do it with a CDI number. Typically, the USA Branches have nothing to do with the Argentina branches and you really don't have any huge benefit. Sometimes a letter of introduction helps. Especially if you are a high net individual or Premier client with that bank.

For instance, I'm a Premier member with a bank in the UK and my asset client manager contacted the branch here and they had an ATM card, savings account in dollars and pesos opened up for me within 2 weeks of moving to Argentina several years ago.

More and more banks are getting competitive and allowing accounts with CDI numbers vs. DNI whereas a few years ago they did not.

In my experience, the best ways to get money here LEGALLY is to go through legal money exchange firms that are registered through the Central Bank. Keep in mind the laws have changed in the last year so the amount of paperwork these days at these firms is alot. Legally notarized tax returns, bank statements, pay check stubs, etc. (basically the source of the funds).

Cheers all.
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Dan Sandefur
New member
Username: Panamadan

Post Number: 1
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 9:48 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello, I just returned from a scouting trip there, mainly in the Cordoba area. After talking with several realtors, I found that some of them have escrow accounts in the US to deal with this problem of transferring money into Argentina for real estate purchases by newcomers without their own bank account there. I don't usually purchase real estate through realtors, but this would be a good reason to. I will probably do that with an attorney instead, since I usually deal through attorneys for property purchases in foreign countries. Attorneys that handle real estate purchases usually have escrow accounts in other countries too.

Since I have an account with HSBC in another country, I will test the other possibility of presenting a reference letter from them to the Argentine branch. I'll post the results of that after I try it.
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1065
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 3:46 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

This is good information. Thank you for sharing and for joining us, Dan.
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Apartmentsba.com
Intermediate Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 160
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 7:34 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Just make sure that all the paperwork is legitimate and everything is done properly and registered through AFIP. Also, odds are that most people don't know their realtor or Escribano very well. Keep in mind that by doing a bank wire to THEIR account you are literally wiring them CASH instantly so make sure you know these people very very well or they have a sterling reputation and have been doing this for a long time. Would you wire cash to a stranger in your own country?? Exactly! So don't do it here.

It is a LOT of paperwork but the safest method is still opening your own account at a legal money exchange firm that is registered through the Central Bank. The documentation that you must provide is more than it used to be due to anti money laundering and anti-terrorism laws last year. Most of these places you must provide tax returns, bank statements, and a general source of the funds. This should be NO problem for anyone that has funds legally.

Keep in mind also, if the realtor doesn't do something right and declare the transaction properly, you could have big problems with AFIP when you go to sell the property.

AFIP is starting to scrutinize sales to make sure everything was done properly. None of my clients have had problems since they are paying their property/asset tax each year, their rental taxes and have a local legal/tax representative as required by law.

Some foreigners that have retained my firm have had huge delays in getting their AFIP permit to sell. These are people that didn't do things properly. They didn't pay their asset tax on time or at all each year, they didn't have a local legal representative as required by law, they were never paying any rental taxes.

So far I haven't seen AFIP check with anyone how they brought their money in as they were well aware before mid-2006 that most everyone was doing it in "black". With these new anti-money laundering laws, I firmly believe they will really see how you brought in your funds if you purchased post mid-2006.

Good luck all.
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Dan Sandefur
New member
Username: Panamadan

Post Number: 3
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yes, of course, the paperwork needs to be well documented, in any case. Especially, concerning the money. Certainly leave nothing to chance with that. I have seen many people on this forum, and heard from many people I met there all say that most realtors cannot be trusted. That is why I prefer having an attorney handle the money transfer with the transaction. Generally, they are more trustworthy and competant with handling the tranaction and the money. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule, and everyone needs to do their own due diligence.

Compared to Panama, where I have been living and investing for 4 years, investing in Argentina seems to be much more difficult and problematic.
I am hoping that it only appears that way, and it really is not.
Banking and money transfers certainly are more problematic and difficult than in Panama.

Another difference that I am learning about is that in Panama, the buyer's attorney usually handles the money transfer through their escrow account, as part of handling the entire transaction.
They also do the title search, to verify a clear title.
They do what the escribano does there, and everything else too.

It seems that there, the buyer's attorney does not usually handle the money transfer, or the verification of a clear title. Is that correct? If so, in that case, there seems to be no real need for an attorney. Are there any attorneys that do handle either or both of those things for a buyer?
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Apartmentsba.com
Intermediate Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 161
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Wednesday, April 04, 2007 - 5:13 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dan,

Panama and Argentina are night and day when it comes to the banking system. Argentina is light years behind Panama which has a first world type of banking system.

Also, I believe you are a bit confused. The buyer's attorney IS the Escribano here. An Escribano is a lawyer here in Argentina. An Escribano is required on ALL purchases so you must use one. It IS the Escribanos duty to make sure that the title is free and clear of liens, encumbrances and mortgages on the title.

Please be careful though. Just because that is their job and it's their duty, some of them aren't doing their jobs properly. I have seen several instances where the Escribano never even did a title check. Remember that they do NOT get paid until closing so some of them -- even if they discover anything -- they don't report it to their client and go ahead with the closing. Be careful and use a good and trusted Escribano.

The system here in Argentina is very good with all real estate transactions going through a Central Registry so as long as you use a good Escribano you won't have issues as long as he did a thorough check on not only the title deed but also the condo association dues, and all the utility bills.

Good luck.
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Simon Fawkes
New member
Username: Expatba

Post Number: 19
Registered: 1-2007


Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 6:28 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Mike is absolutely right in what he says above about escribanos.

I've seen a lot of confusion over the terms escribano, lawyer, attorney and notary. All purchases in Argentina must go through an escribano, which is often translated as notary, but it means more than that. An escribano is a fully qualified lawyer who has undergone an additional 2 years of university training in property law. As part of the purchase process the escribano will notorise the relevant forms and documents needed to complete the transaction, hence acting as a notary. But an escribano is far more that just a notary.

An escribano is more or less equivalent to a conveyancing solicitor in the UK.

I hope this clears up the confusion.

Simon Fawkes
Author, The Complete Guide To Real Estate Investment in Argentina, ISBN 1430303980, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1430303980
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Dan Sandefur
New member
Username: Panamadan

Post Number: 4
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 10:00 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Yes, I was confused about the roles of attorneys and escribanos.
Thanks for clearing that up. Now I understand, and see the need for a good escribano. As I was hoping, the property purchase procedure there may be simpler than in Panama, not more difficult, as it appeared to be. In Panama, the notary is a government position, and another person in all transactions.
That seems to be the only difference, which makes it simpler in Argentina, by eliminating one of the people involved. Since the escribano does everything, the importance of a good one is essential. Do any of them also handle the money transfers?
Does the seller usually have an attorney also? If so, what is their role in the transaction? If not, does the seller split the cost of the escribano with the buyer?

How is the money transferred with most purchases now?
Is it still with suitcases full of cash, or is it through money exchange firms? I am sure that large corporate deals go through banks or exchange firms, but what about the smaller individual deals?

As a side note, I read that the US and most of the other large economies are agressively working toward a global, electronic, cashless monetary system, with the goal of eventually replacing paper currencies completely. Aside from the obvious political motives behind this, like traceability, I wonder what effect that will have on countries like Argentina, and its real estate market in particular. We have heard it before, and probably dismissed it as Big Brother science fiction. Now it looks like it is coming. Maybe not very soon, but eventually for sure. Even if not all countries participate in it, they will all be affected by it. I also read that right now, countries that have lots of USD, like China and Germany, have been dumping them because of its devaluation. That is not good for those with USD. That same article also said that Germany and some other European countries are considering returning to their national currencies because of similar problems with the Euro. The main problem with the Euro and USD being that they are not backed by gold, and so are basically fiat currencies. Get ready for some unusual events.

"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy."

- James Madison -

Wasn't he right?
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Tom
Advanced Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 369
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 11:17 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

the reason there will never be a cashless society is there would be no crooks. crooks have to have a way to hide money. you cannot hide money if everything is documented. electronic transfers leave a trail.
the crooks are in charge.

take it from there
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Dan Sandefur
New member
Username: Panamadan

Post Number: 5
Registered: 4-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 05, 2007 - 8:01 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The crooks that are really in charge are different from the crooks that I think you are referring to. The crooks who are really in charge are the ones who rig elections, start wars for dubious reasons, and manipulate economies and 911 types of events. These are not the kind of crooks that need to hide cash.

These crooks are in control of whatever monetary system there is, be it cash or cashless. They also control and manipulate the paper and electronic trails for their benefit. For them, electronic records are SO much easier to manipulate than paper records and cash. The 2000 election is proof of that, and why so many people are protesting electronic ballots now.

Traceability is a good thing for us honest people. It is not a problem for them.
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Tom
Advanced Member
Username: Diverdown48

Post Number: 370
Registered: 6-2006


Posted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 11:00 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

welcome Dan
we particularly need paper trails for the electronic voting machines, ones that can't be doctored.
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Simon Fawkes
New member
Username: Expatba

Post Number: 20
Registered: 1-2007


Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 9:03 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi Dan

No the seller does not usually have an attorney - the buyer's escribano undertakes all the necessary checks on behalf of the buyer. The buyer alone bears the cost of the escribano. This makes sense as they are acting in the buyer's interests, not the seller's.

Most escribanos do not get involved directly in the money transfer side of things. However, if the escribano works for one of the larger law firms they may have overseas client accounts which can be used for money transfers. As a generalisation, escribanos who work for law firms tend to be a little more expensive.

I hope this helps.

Simon Fawkes
Author, The Complete Guide To Real Estate Investment in Argentina, ISBN 1430303980, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1430303980
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Apartmentsba.com
Intermediate Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 162
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 9:30 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Actually Simon has a small mistake in what he posted. He posted that the buyer alone has all the cost but that is NOT true. The seller still has some small portion in legal fees payable to the Escribano but it's not much compared to the buyer. The buyer picks up most of the fee but the seller still does always have a smaller fee. Trust me as I've purchased hundreds of properties and the seller has always had a fee. Typically on a u$s 100,000 property it's been less than 1,000 pesos. I bought one the other day for $225,000 and the seller's portion was a little less than 2,000 pesos. The seller always does have fees.

Also, the lawyer will collect the 1.5% transfer tax automatically from the seller unless they have a waiver from AFIP and they are buying another property. Some sellers are surprised by that but the Escribano is obligated to withhold this 1.5% if they don't have a waiver from AFIP.

Cheers.
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Simon Fawkes
New member
Username: Expatba

Post Number: 22
Registered: 1-2007


Posted on Thursday, April 12, 2007 - 9:58 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Mike's point above is technically correct, however the seller's fee is transparent from the buyer's perspective; he/she has no real awareness of it. The buyer has complete control over negotiating the fee and appointing an escribano (with the exception of some new-build/off-plan apartments where sometimes the developer may appoint a single escribano to handle the sale of all units for reasons of efficiency and economy). The seller has none. The seller is not splitting the cost with the buyer in the conventional sense

I hope this clarifies things.

Simon Fawkes
Author, The Complete Guide To Real Estate Investment in Argentina, ISBN 1430303980, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1430303980
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Apartmentsba.com
Intermediate Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 163
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Friday, April 13, 2007 - 10:12 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

You didn't mention what the buyer's awareness is. You said the "buyer alone bears the cost of the Escribano" which is the point which I corrected. Again, the seller always does have some portion of the legal fees.

I've not only purchased tens of millions of dollars in real estate but I've also sold several millions of dollars in real estate so I feel like I can accurately point out details of transactions.

Simon IS correct in stating that on new construction projects you typically can't select your Escribano. Usually the buyer always has the right to select the Escribano but not on new construction projects. I have purchased dozens of apartments in new construction projects including several for myself (not just my clients). On ALL the projects I HAD to use the building's Escribano (lawyer).

Keep in mind the building does NOT do this for "efficiency or economy". It's pretty much a scam if you ask me. I'm sure in many projects the builder is getting some of this money. Typically the Escribanos are charging quite a bit. Usually more than any other Escribano. The tough thing is there is usually nothing you can do either. You are stuck using THEIR Escribano.

Sometimes you CAN negotiate with the Escribano. In the past 2 months in 2 new construction projects I bought about 15 units in the 2 buildings and I was able to get the legal fee down because I bought so many units.

Cheers all.
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Simon Fawkes
New member
Username: Expatba

Post Number: 23
Registered: 1-2007


Posted on Saturday, April 14, 2007 - 7:37 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The reason that developers of new constuction projects use a single appointed escribano is primarily for reasons of efficiency. If you are selling (say) 50 apartments at the same time then 50 separate escibanos all requesting the same legal documents at the same time is a logistical nightmare.

However, that's not to say that many developers don't milk the situation, which is why it may sometimes seem like a scam. The key is to include the escribano fee as part of your total negotiations with the developer.

Simon Fawkes
Author, The Complete Guide To Real Estate Investment in Argentina, ISBN 1430303980, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1430303980
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Apartmentsba.com
Intermediate Member
Username: Saint

Post Number: 164
Registered: 5-2005


Posted on Friday, April 20, 2007 - 10:47 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I know why they CLAIM to do it but it's not really more efficient just because the building is using the same Escribano. All the deals happen at different times for the most part. A new construction never sells them all at the same time.

The main reason is really that most new construction they refuse to sell it unless you record a FALSE price on the title deed. Most of the time it is as low as 50% of the actual price you are paying. It's easier to deal with one Escribano that is willing to LIE and claim the transaction is a false price vs. many Escribanos that won't go along with it.

THAT is the main reason they all use the same Escribano. It doesn't "seem like a scam". It IS a scam! I'm not saying all Escribanos in new construction are bad or a scam. I'm just saying the principle is not more efficient.

From my experience, the Escribanos on new constructions are some of the shadiest out there. I'm not sure how many properties others on the board have purchased. I do know that I buy several properties each and every week so I have a lot of experience dealing with these Escribanos.
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Claudio A Goas
New member
Username: Goas7760

Post Number: 1
Registered: 2-2009
Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 1:32 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hi, I am moving back to Argentina after living in the USA for 48 years. I have dual citizenship and an argentine DNI. I am moving to Necochea and have been struggling with issues for the last 3 years. I am so happy to find this forum. It seems most of the info in this thread deals with foreigners bringing in money. My brother was in Argentina a few months ago and went to Banco De La Provencia with my uncle and they said doing a wire transfer was no problem as long as I have the proper documentation. I sold my home, then put the money into CD's for a couple of years. IN the blog someone mentioned that doing a wire transfer from my bank here in the US you need a letter of recomemdation from your bank. Is that the information that the Banco De La Provencia needs, or do they want to see that in person when I get there, or is it something that the us bank sends with the wire transfer? I am going to send about $110,000 is that too much to send at one time, or should I split it into smaller transactions. Argentina is a wonderful country, but it is a shame that they make things so difficult. I would appreciate any additional information that you could pass on. Thank you
Claudio
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Sergio
New member
Username: Sergio

Post Number: 8
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 11:41 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Claudio... In addition to your problems with wires, consider the issue of taxes. Last week talking to a laywer (Ernest Young) , she told me that if I become a a "fiscal resident of Argentina" exactly the same situation as you (US Citizen, born in Argentina) that I will have to pay taxes in Argentina (worldwide income) and USA (worldwide income). There are no tax treaties with Argentina according to her. Please be sure you consult with several attorneys as I don't believe this is true. USA worldwide income is of course 100% correct. In Argentina, I thought that as long as I do not generate income in Argentina that I did not have to deal with Argentina taxes due to tax treaties with USA. Argentina also tax people in worldwide income.

As far as I know to receive wires, Banco central is becoming a pain in the neck requesting all kind of documents to be sure where the money came from. Unless you need a large amount to buy property , I will recommend that you use multiple ATM cards from US banks for living expenses in Argentina. For larger amounts, I will wire only smaller amounts (like to buy a car, etc). The cost of sending wires is very high(wire fees plus exchanges fees).

I am sure someone in this forum may have real experience with these issues.


Please Keeps us inform thanks

Sergio
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Mark
Member
Username: Lostintheandes

Post Number: 94
Registered: 10-2008
Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 12:47 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Claudio,
No Norte Americano, and very few Argentinians would even dream of putting 100K in an Argentinian Bank. I reccomend you do your homework first. This ain't Kansas, Toto.
m
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Sergio
New member
Username: Sergio

Post Number: 9
Registered: 6-2006
Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 1:13 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ok. I found this information. I guess the lawyer was right if you are a resident (after 6 months) you must pay taxes in In Argentina (world wide income).


I am assuming if you leave the country ever 5 months , you may be able get around this. The link below is very good with updated information. There is no tax treaty with the USA.

Sergio


http://www.kpmg.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/TIES/ARGENTINA_2008_TIES.pdf

http://www.deloitte.com/dtt/cda/doc/content/dtt_tax_guide_argentina.pdf

(Message edited by admin on February 22, 2009)
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1832
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 3:50 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I do not have the specific regulation at hand and things may also be fluid when it comes to taxes, but a few years ago I researched this myself and found out that if your income in Argentina was below usd 70k/year you wouldn't be taxed by the US (exempt). If taxes applied, I was informed I should first pay the US and then Argentina and after that get a refund from AFIP claiming double taxation, which laws prevented. I think the key question for taxation would be 'are you entering the country as an Argentine with residency? or are you entering with an american passport and still making money locally? This might determine who to pay first and on what basis, but in my case the whole thing meant such an ordeal that I completely dropped the issue.

Also, I heard Cristina was working on some kind of repatriation of capital benefits (about 2 mill) were you wouldn't be taxed on the money you were thinking on bringing. Banks DO know about this repatriation of capital. I have no specifics on this either. Like it was said before by Mark and Sergio, be careful. It may all look clean on white and black but on a day-to-day basis you may be looking for trouble, if not a major headache.

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