| Author | Message | ||
     Patagonia New member Username: Xandersal Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2006 |
OK, you've fallen in love with Patagonia....but before you put your hard earned cash on the table, you should read this blog. http://patagonia-warning.blogspot.com/2006/08/buyer-beware-for-argentine-patagonia.html Sorry, no followups. You'll have to do your own research. (make sure there are no spaces in the above URL when you access it. If there is a space remove it.) (Message edited by admin on November 16, 2006) | ||
| Apartmentsba.com Intermediate Member Username: Saint Post Number: 121 Registered: 5-2005  |
I can't get the site to come up but I suspect it talks about the woes of foreigners buying property in Patagonia. I've been posting for quite a while that the laws are different down there. I LOVE the area and almost purchased several times. In fact, I once placed an offer on a property but I backed out. I took the money and invested it in Uruguay instead who is very friendly with foreign investors. I said it before and I'll say it again. I would NEVER buy real estate in a location that would not immediately allow me to place the title deed in my own name. I wouldn't buy in the USA with 100% cash and not be allowed to purchase under my own name so I certainly wouldn't do it in South America. I receive emails on a weekly basis from Americans that purchased because their realtors told them that they would easily be granted a permit to purchase (after they already put money down or purchased) and now they are getting rejected on their permits. Be careful and understand the laws where you are buying. Cheers all. | ||
| A S New member Username: Nohotnocold Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2006 |
I've read the site (be sure there are no spaces in the URL) and heard that before. To my way of thinking, it ain't right, but it is what it is. Even as dysfunctional as the Dominican Republic is, it's not like that here. So I wonder, who is buying property in the security zone? Is it only Argentinians? Seems like it would hurt the price of property but i've seen nothing to indicate that. That's why i'm reading more about Chile. | ||
| Roberto Board Administrator Username: Admin Post Number: 856 Registered: 12-2004 |
Laura posted about this a while back. The reason seems to be exclusively the protection of national resources as the bordering areas are the ones that are the richest ones. A consideration, would americans be happy letting chinese people buy extremely large parts of Alaska? As was noted many times here the present government relies on the left arm of the peronist movement which in plain english means that national -better yet, nationalist- concerns override transnational capitalism, even if it impairs wealth creation. And Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid could not hide in patagonia either 100 years ago (Cholila Valley)  | ||
| Apartmentsba.com Intermediate Member Username: Saint Post Number: 122 Registered: 5-2005 |
Roberto, I know why they have the law. I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of the fear of Argentina worrying about foreigners buying up large tracts of land. The Bennetton family and Ted Turner are buying up as much land as they can. However, there should be a clear separation between land barrons buying HUGE tracks of land and single individuals buying apartments and single homes. There easily can be new laws put in place that would provide for individuals buying individual properties. Argentina (Patagonia) is going to lose valuable investment $$$$$ because of this law. I know many people that took their millions into other countries/cities because of this law. The house I was going to buy in Bariloche I put the money to purchase in Punta del Este, Uruguay instead. Now Uruguay is a country that really welcomes foreign investments! Definitely I think they can easily change the laws down there....Until they do, I'm not buying anything down there. | ||
| Tom Advanced Member Username: Diverdown48 Post Number: 278 Registered: 6-2006  |
You can buy land in Buenos Aires province with no problems with the title. From what I understand the issue is along the border but not the Atlantic side. Why Argentina would be wary of foreigners buying land, more than 97% of the population is or was at one time foreigners. | ||
| Tom Advanced Member Username: Diverdown48 Post Number: 279 Registered: 6-2006 |
From what I have read Butch and Sundance were in Bolivia when they met their fate. http://www.bolivia.freehosting.net/Butch.htm | ||
| Roberto Board Administrator Username: Admin Post Number: 859 Registered: 12-2004 |
I agree with you, Mike. And Tom, I think only the legislators (and gov. cohorts) know the real reasons. And I would not be surprised that this has to do more with traditional peronist philosophy than anything else. Nothing like knowing our history starting around the 20's (la guerra de las carnes and such, which paved the way for Peron's rise to power in 1945). Foreigners are well advised to understand our historical circumstances. Butch + Sundance: apparently so, but they were living in northern patagonia according to some historical docs. Not that they were found by american authorities, they got caught by local ones. Just saying they couldn't hide because we now know where they went. (Message edited by admin on November 16, 2006) | ||
| Tom Advanced Member Username: Diverdown48 Post Number: 280 Registered: 6-2006 |
What is the big deal about buying porperty in the security zones. Unless you are a smuggler with specific needs there is a lot of the tenth largest country in the world to buy outside the security zones. | ||
| Tom Advanced Member Username: Diverdown48 Post Number: 281 Registered: 6-2006 |
What is the big deal about buying porperty in the security zones. Unless you are a smuggler with specific needs there is a lot of the tenth largest country in the world to buy outside the security zones. | ||
| Apartmentsba.com Intermediate Member Username: Saint Post Number: 123 Registered: 5-2005 |
Roberto, As usual, I 100% agree with you! It's a true shame as it's really gorgeous down there. Remember, you can purchase a property if you have an Argentine corporation (which I have about 4 or 5). Just keep in mind the huge capital gains taxes when you buy as a corporation. I still wouldn't recommend buying anywhere in the world where you can't hold the lien to your property in your own name free and clear with no strings attached. No problems in Buenos Aires at all owning property. Argentina is making a big mistake down there. I am constantly being approached with pretty sizable deals down there but I always turn them down as I couldn't in good faith suggest to anyone to buy there until they change the laws. As I mentioned before, don't do anything that you wouldn't do in your own country. I doubt many Americans would agree to purchase a home in cash in the USA and not be able to hold the title in their own name.... | ||
| Roberto Board Administrator Username: Admin Post Number: 861 Registered: 12-2004 |
Ditto. And like Tom said, Argentina is very large and mostly undiscovered. Parts of patagonia are gorgeous but tainted with a lot of buzz. I recently saw listed a wonderful 4 bedroom house with a pool and a large backyard for sale at 70K in a nice place in Cordoba. | ||
| Arial Junior Member Username: Arial Post Number: 29 Registered: 10-2006 |
Having lived in Bariloche, I know that the government has the support of the people there. Some of them at least are aware that Americans can easily and cheaply get a loan on real estate in America, pay cash in Argentina and, as Americans always do, pay way more than something is worth there (just because it would be cheap in the US) and they run prices up until the locals can't possibly own their home in their own town. Argentines cannot get loans easily or cheaply so they can't compete with us foreign buyers. To my thinking it is understandable that they do not want Americans. Americans are popular tourists but some, at least, don't want us to stay. My legal resources tell me that this is a law that goes back to the war between Argentina and Chile and has to do with the aftermath of that war. It is just that sometimes it is enforced and sometimes it isn't. Until last January (I think) it was not enforced. Another bureaucrat took over in Buenos Aires at that time and decided to build his popularity by denying purchase to foreigers. The locals really love it and will support him in office. I was told to just wait until the next bureaucrat takes over and it will change. That's just the way it goes in Argentina. Many Americans already own there in their own name. But when it changed, new purchasers were denied. The reason I prefer Bariloche is that it is my "home" in Argentina. I love the town, the area, the people, the environment. When I get off the plane there I feel like I am home. It is where I want to live. But probably I will set my sights elsewhere when I get back and start looking again to buy. Arial | ||
| Apartmentsba.com Intermediate Member Username: Saint Post Number: 130 Registered: 5-2005 |
Hi Arial, I understand your points but I disagree with certain aspects of it. Americans can EASILY and relatively cheaply get loans in the USA for real estate in the USA but banks don't give loans easily for real estate outside of the USA. Yes, there are ways around this with home equity loans but having purchased tens of millions of dollars of real estate in Argentina, I can tell you that most foreigners are paying with 100% cash. Look at neighborhoods in Buenos Aires and you see foreign buying VERY high. You don't have resentment from the locals for the most part. The values of their properties are all rising tremendously (as I predicted long ago). The locals are still the biggest source of purchases. I see properties continuing to rise in value as mortgages become more mainstream (which will happen in the future). Just like anywhere in the world where credit is introduced, it will cause more buying and that will in turn push property values up. I LOVE Bariloche as well and will happily buy a house down there once they change the laws and stop being ignorant about hardworking foreigners buying individual houses or lots down there under their own name. Until then, I'll spend my money in Buenos Aires, Uruguay and other counries around the world where I can hold title free and clear under my own name. Good luck all. Happy holidays. | ||
| Arial Junior Member Username: Arial Post Number: 31 Registered: 10-2006 |
My apologies, I was unclear. Americans were getting loans on real estate they own in the US in order to pay cash in Bariloche because just two years ago you could buy incredibly cheaply there and financing was VERY expensive to the locals. I didn't mean to make the point that Americans are to blame, but that the bureaucrat in BsAs DOES win support that way in that province, at least with some people, because that is their perception. I do have a question. I plan to invest in a small place of my own there, but also in real estate outside Argentina that I probably would invest in Argentina were it not for Argentina's past history. Obviously you don't have that same apprehension. I'm interested in your take on this. Arial | ||
| Apartmentsba.com Intermediate Member Username: Saint Post Number: 135 Registered: 5-2005 |
Hi Arial, I'm sorry for the delay. I just saw your email now. I've been very very busy. Investing in South America is not for everyone. In fact, I don't recommend it for everyone. My clients that are investment here for the most part are high net worth individuals. They are expanding their real estate portfolios, investing to diversify capital outside of the USA/UK or asset protection (if they get sued in the USA, no one will know they own real estate here). Argentina has always been very strong on property rights here and IMHO, I don't see that changing in the future. Of course, no one can say 100%. However, keep in mind during the devastating financial collapse they still respected property rights by foreigners. I truly believe that was a lowpoint for Argentina. A financial collapse like that is really rare and in fact was one of the worst in the world. No, I don't have any apprehension to investing here. I am a resident here now and even if I weren't I would be comfortable investing here. Still, it's not for everyone. I think you have to evaluate your personal situation. It's not for everyone. Argentina does have a shady history. There is some sort of crises every 10 years here but I think it's important to note they always respected property rights. It's the reason you see so many locals buying "bricks" and not putting their money in the banks. All the local families that I'm friends with all own multiple pieces of real estate here. I'm not saying real estate will go up forever here. So far, I've been spot on. I think there are still at least 4-5 more years of capital appreciation. I do think there will be a time to exit the investment (just like most investments in the world) and when that time comes...I'll be unloading my portfolio and buying somewhere else where it makes sense.....That's the recipe for having a lot of money typically..... Cheers. | ||
| Tom Advanced Member Username: Diverdown48 Post Number: 322 Registered: 6-2006 |
The value of property will continue to go up in any country that respects ownership as does Argentina. Of course after Armegeddon things may change. With the population curve continuing to be perpindicular the value of the limited amount of land on the globe will increase while liveable space will decrease if the scientist who do not work for oil companies predictions come true. It will. Goodbye Greenland etc. Someday there will be more homes being built under the waters surface as a necessity and not just a unique vacation habitat. Since the US is working feverishly on developing the technology to mine minerals found on the moon the property values will go up there as well. Believe it. Remember when Gutenburg invented the printing press. Argentina's property values are on the rise. This upward spiral will continue as it does elsewhere. Land is something you can stand on, build on, sell. Stocks and bonds etc. are pieces of paper made from trees grown on land. |
