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Missie Hill
New member
Username: Missieh

Post Number: 2
Registered: 1-2007
Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 2:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Can someone please help me here. I have spoken with banks, the post office, check cashing facilities, etc.. This really can't be that hard of a question... I need to know which would be better... I need to send money to someone in Argentina and it CAN NOT be wired or sent through western union or any other wire service. I need to send either a money order or cashiers check through the registered mail, certified so they can sign for it and it is trackable. Which would you suggest???? A money order or a Cashiers check from a bank. It is a time sensitive situation and sending it express will take 3 to 5 business days. I am thinking if I send a check it will have to wait until it clears the bank so if a money order is the best way to go, should it be a regular money order that you can get from the post office or is there international money orders? I am trying to make it as convenient as possible for the recipient so that they do not run in to any problems trying to cash it. Thank you for your time.
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 934
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, January 12, 2007 - 3:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Missie, what is what the person in the receiving end expects? Can't he tell you what is best for him to cash this? A certified Bank check will work fine and has the advantage of being issued to a specific person in case it gets lost. If issued to noone he can cash it at an exchange house -many may do this- and have the money available at once.
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Riyad Anabtawi
Intermediate Member
Username: Riyada

Post Number: 136
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 6:37 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Roberto
Most exchange houses will not cash it for you immmediately unless they know you. If you are not a regular costumer most wont give you the cash at once, since it takes a long time for the check to clear.
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 938
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 1:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

> unless they know you.

Totally true. Forgot we knew those guys for a few decades... Like Riyad said, you need connections.
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Martin Leon
New member
Username: Farmsinargentina

Post Number: 2
Registered: 5-2007
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 7:05 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Even certified checks take weeks to process, the ONLY way to do it quickly is through a wire transfer. Banco de la Nacion Argentina has a branch in NYC where you can speak to someone in english and they can assist you or your own bank with the transfer. Nothing happens quickly in Argentina, particularly not anything relating to finances.
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Arial
Member
Username: Arial

Post Number: 93
Registered: 10-2006


Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 12:10 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Hello all. I mention this great forum and now someone wants me to post a question. Hopefully he will sign up himself. But here is the question. This is a quote:

I brought money into my account with HSBC to buy my apartment but when I could not do the escritura directly in my name I held the money there while looking to find another property to purchase. Several months later about 30% of my balance disappeared out of my account. The transfer was an electronic transfer alledgedly transfering the money into an Argentine national bank account alledgedly administered by the Argentine government. All I have is a paper (resumen de cuenta) with a withdrawal labelled "plazo fijo". The clerk who administers my account told me that that is what happens to foregn account holders who introduce money and do not make a purchase.

Alledgedly I will get the money back. I was not happy but I thought well O.K., and now that a year has passed and I do not have my money back I am starting to really get upset and wonder if the money will ever come back to my account. At the HSBC branch here in Buenos Aires they tell me to return to Bariloche and ask the clerk who administers my account. The clerk in Bariloche who administers my account shows me corespondence to Buenos Aires asking them the status of my money and an explanation. She says her hands are tied and that she cannot show me any documentation of the transfer from my account because it originated in BA from "Central". Of course there is no answer from "central". They just refer me back to Bariloche.

So... Before I get a barrel and some firewood and a drum to beat incessantly and a protest banner or two with copies of my resumen de cuenta pasted to the front and start camping out at Florida 60 to participate in the Argentina passtime, has anyone else had this happen to them? (From Arial)
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1116
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Friday, May 25, 2007 - 4:53 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

We need more information. When was the plazo due? Was it a 1 year term? Was it renewed again? If so, he must terminate it even if at a penalty and the money should be automatically transfered to his checking/money market.

He has to escalate the issue ASAP. Play nice but stop talking to the clerk in Bariloche. He has to find his boss and the boss of his boss. Same for the office in BA. This was mishandled and CAN be fixed but I am under the impression that the low level employees are giving him the run around. Higher in the hierarchy someone will solve this easily.
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Arial
Member
Username: Arial

Post Number: 95
Registered: 10-2006


Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thank you, Roberto. You are a fountain of information and caring, even. This seems rather serious since it involves over $3,000. Here is an update. Again, a quote:

I have had to almost pull clerks teeth out to even find out where the money went. I had been to four main branches of HSBC and all claimed to know nothing. After arguing at the counter for 10 minutes one of them finally went on line and printed off the paper that showed a withdrawal for Plazo Fijo. That was the big breakthrough. I was finally given a computer readout of a date and my account number with the entry "plazo fijo" and the origination date. This was given to me by the HSBC office on Florida 60. This conflicts with my resumen de cuenta which reads "tax adjustment". They could not tell me why this withdrawal from my account had taken place or what specifically had been done with the money.

The account manager in Bariloche told me the part about why she thinks that the withdrawal was done as a retention of foreign funds since there is no record of an escritura in my name since the transfer. My account manager in the Bariloche branch has stated she has no withdrawal slips for the money nor was there a paper record of a withdrawal of my funds except for the electronic debit done through the central bank. On my last visit at HSBC Florida 60 on Thursday I did not even get to explain again why I was there and I was told in an increased volume voice that they had nothing to do with Bariloche accounts each time I tried to explain what I needed.

So to answer the questions I really cannot. I really have nothing in writing. The account clerk in Bariloche told me verbally that these plazo fijos mature in one year. That would mean it should have matured in the middle of this month May 2007.

As for talking to the clerk in Bariloche she is the only one who is taking time with my case, and notifying me of her correspondence with "central" and returning my phone calls. I am absolutely stonewalled here in Buenos Aires. Again, Thursday the clerk in Buenos Aires would not even listen. Rather she kept interupting with "take it to Bariloche". I was "playing very nice" and the clerk escalated the case with a raised voice volume until people waiting were actually starting to look over at us curiously so I wished her a nice day and left.

In my last post that I asked Ariel to post I kind of was joking about camping out at Florida 60 with a drum because of how the Argentine people protest. Maybe there is good reason why they do it. (Posted by Arial)
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1118
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 4:31 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Ok, then this is different than giving him the runaorund. It appears there is a piece of legislation (regulacion) that is affecting how he deposited/entered his funds. Unfortunately, I am not familiar with any new or past regulations and a search in Google failed to bring up anything related.

There is a chance that the Central Bank as taken part of his money automatically and parked it in an interest bearing account provisionally. And there is also the chance that the employees may not fully know the regulations as they change a lot and it is difficult to keep up. Yes, they should. But in practice and in argentine reality, this never happens and most of the time there is a lot arguments and counterarguments.

Does your friend speak any spanish? Is he still in Buenos Aires?
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Simon Fawkes
Junior Member
Username: Expatba

Post Number: 34
Registered: 1-2007


Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 5:01 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Roberto

My understanding of the law is that for reasons related to retaining capital in the country banks are required to withhold 30% of funds wired into Argentina for one year before releasing them to the recipient. This requirement is waived where the funds are being used to purchase a property, however it is necessary to prove to the bank that this is the case by providing the relevant documentation - e.g. a copy of the boleto or sena.

It sounds like this law is not being applied correctly in Arial's friend's case.

Simon Fawkes
Author, The Complete Guide To Real Estate Investment in Argentina, ISBN 1430303980, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1430303980
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Arial
Member
Username: Arial

Post Number: 96
Registered: 10-2006


Posted on Sunday, May 27, 2007 - 8:56 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Roberto, yes he speaks Spanish and is very comfortable with it. He is still in BsAs. He has a flight out on June 2 but I suspect that he will not leave until this is settled.

Also, Simon, thank you for your input. I am passing this all on. Arial
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1120
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, May 28, 2007 - 5:59 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thank you, Simon.

One year would have been due in mid May so according to this regulation funds should have been released. Arial, please pm me your friends' contact information, if possible. I will email him the name of someone he can see and perhaps can provide him with the information he needs.
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Arial
Member
Username: Arial

Post Number: 97
Registered: 10-2006


Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 1:07 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thank you all for your input and Roberto for additional help. Here is the resolution (I hope)! Most of you realize that this did not happen to me but I have posted for someone as a favor. This is a quote that I am posting in case it should come up for someone on this forum.
-------------------------------------------------- -------------

I went back to the headquarters on Florida 40 and went to the third floor again(the 5th time at the casa matriz). Same building, same desk, same floor, same clerks. I got to see the jefa de sector because Celina from Bariloche suggested that I speak with her. After the first hour of my wait the clerk warned me that the commercial sector boss would not be able to help me. But she agreed anyways to let me see her. I said that I would sit and wait until she was available.

To make a long story short. There indeed was a plazo fijo which was expired. She found it in a file. The money could not be returned to my account without my permission. I had to sign the plazo fijo and two other documents and a letter they wrote themselves that they wrote for me in the office that requested my money be returned to my account. As an American trying to understand the system and thought process in Argentina it is indeed very different. For anyone else who may have this happen to them here are the rules:

(1) The money was withdrawn from my account without notice or explanation on the debit ledger in the monthly statement. To return my money to my account requires numerous signatures on documents that gives them my permission to return the money!!!!!
(2) The bank branch may have trouble finding out what happened. If you go personally to the casa matriz at HSBC, avoid customer service people on the first floor (planta abajo). They know nothing and will make up or invent stuff. I was told my money had been transferred internationally to a third party and later that my money had been taken by the Argentine tax authorities for an unpaid tax. All complete bull. Go to comercio y transferencias al externo on the third floor. Even the correct desk on the third floor did not know how to help me. I got lucky the second time I went there two weeks later.
(3)The Paper CD or plazo fijo stays in the caza matriz or main headquartes. It does not go to the branch where you live. On the back of the document there is a line that requires your signature. The paper exists somewere and has to be located. Lots of luck.
(4) The bank likes to talk about the CD or plazo fijo like it pays interest. Apparently it is an interest free loan that the government requires that you make for the introduction of your money into the country. The amount returned to me is the same amount they took. Perhaps to collect the interest I needed to go to a different window at the bank! (posted by Arial)
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1123
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, May 29, 2007 - 2:43 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

For argentines this is business as usual, except for #4. They most definitely put your friends' money to work for one entire year... on his tab. And not even a thank you. Bad, bad, bad.

Glad it may be all over soon.
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Altagracia Herrera
New member
Username: Marinah

Post Number: 1
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 10:26 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I have recently inherited an apt. in Argentina. I've rehabbed it and it's in a very good commercial builging on Sta Fe. The realtor who's trying to find renters tells me that I need to have an accountant. Two that were recommended didn't know anything about the laws governing foreign investors there and gave me very contradictory information. Do I really need an accountant. It's a small property --160 square meters. Does anyone know of accountants familiar with foreign investors? Spanish is no a problem. Is there another way of doing it besides an accountant?
Thank you very much for any leads
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luciano pereira
Junior Member
Username: Luciano

Post Number: 26
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 10:58 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Dear Altagracia Herrera, as you can see from my other post i always willing to help other people but in this case it is related with my work as lawyer that's why i just give you a general answer and if you need further information you can contact me or any other my self promotion ends here.

Does anyone know of accountants familiar with foreign investors?
YES

Is there another way of doing it besides an accountant?
YES

Can you do it for your own?
Probably not without help, because envolved so much trouble and time in real life.

Besides there are other issues you need to control who is renting your place, his/her financial information, if the realtor is charging you in a correct way, other paths, etc.

My final thought is this: do things with people that know what are they doing AND MAKE YOU BEING CONFIDENT ENOUGH.

Peace of mind is an important thing. That's why you need someone you can trust, and this is related sometimes with 'gut feelings'

For instance: I know lots of dentists that are great fellows and excelent professionals but i just go with the one i trust. In my case he earned my trust when I saw a very small picture (far back in his desktop pointing to him) of his son using the same braces that he recommend me (and they were much unexpensive that the ones that other two dentists offered me)
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A. D. Hudgens
New member
Username: Hijo_de_tejas

Post Number: 9
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 3:04 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

The question about how to send money from my bank account in the USA to Argentina bank account is the same question ask by Missie Hill at the start of this thread. I went to my bank in the USA and bought a certified cashers check for $260 and my bank charged me $5. The check was made out to the person in Argentina with her bank name and bank account number in the "pay to" part of the check. I sent it USPS with five day delivery for $25. The person received it and took it to the her Bank and was told it would take a month for her to get her money. She took it to three other places and finely received $600 pasos for it and said that was with her good discount. She said it cost her $70 U$S to get it cashed. She ask me not to ever send another check. What went wrong? To wire the money was going to cost $50 - $70 U$S. I don't know what would have happened if I had sent a money order. Someone on this forem knows how to do this. Please share with us.
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W Piccione
New member
Username: Mrspicci

Post Number: 18
Registered: 9-2007
Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Perhaps, I am naive but I have had not trouble with money being sent via Paypal to me.
I hope that helps.
Best,
Mrs. P
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1332
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 4:25 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Just send a personal check from an A bank issued to her.

Certified checks *do* take longer to clear. She can take a personal check from say, BofA, and have it cashed in an exchange house -not a bank- pretty quickly for less than 3% of the value. In this case it would have been less than usd $7.

Usps is somewhat risky... 8 out of 10 checks arrive fine. Two get lost somewhere. If she is not in a hurry I would just send and resend the money via simple postage. The more secure you want the delivery the longer it will take and there are no guarantees as for safety. Sometimes you get lucky.

You save:
- the fee from your bank $5
- the expensive stamp $25

She saves:
- $70 in fees
- 29 days of waiting

(Message edited by admin on October 08, 2007)
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1333
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 4:28 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Wait... Mrs. P are you saying you can transfer the funds you receive in your paypal account to a checking account in a BANK IN ARGENTINA?? This is new-new to me. Last time I checked argentine banks weren't part of the equation...
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Simon Fawkes
Junior Member
Username: Expatba

Post Number: 43
Registered: 1-2007


Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 4:42 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Anyone can create a Paypal account and link it to their email address. That way you can receive money from another Paypal user.

But to fund your Paypal account (other that what other users send you) to make other payments, and to transfer money received to a bank account, the Paypal account needs to be registered/linked to a physical bank account. Currently Paypal supports bank accounts in the US, most of Europe plus a few other countries. Unfortunately, Argentina is not one of them.

So although Argentineans can have a Paypal account, they can't link it to an Argentinean bank account. They can only use any funds they receive to make a Paypal payment to another user.

I hope this helps

Simon Fawkes
Author, The Complete Guide To Real Estate Investment in Argentina, ISBN 1430303980, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1430303980
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1334
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 5:50 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thanks.
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A. D. Hudgens
New member
Username: Hijo_de_tejas

Post Number: 10
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 7:04 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thank you Mrs. P and Simon and Roberto thank you for your answer. Roberto Iím a frequent stalker on this forum and know you normally give good advice. ButÖÖ.this does not make any common sense. The ďcertified cashers checkĒ is issued by my bank guaranteeing the amount of the check regardless of the amount in my checking account. This is much more securing than a personal check on my bank account. With a personal check my bank is guaranteeing to transfer the money if my account has that amount and I donít stop payment. My bank made the check out to Banco Macro Bansud (her bank and business account number) and will electronically transfer this amount to them so it can go directly into her account. Why would it take a month? Why would a personal check on my bank go through in less time? Are you saying an exchange house in Argentina is more trusting of my bank to transfer funds to them than her bank? You said USPS (United States Postal Service) is somewhat risky Ö..so instead of Express Mail(3-5 days) send it simple postage or regular (slow) mail and if it didnít arrive send another check by regular mail until she receives one of them. How long will it take regular mail to arrive and who will try to cash my checks if I must send several? You said ďThe more secure you want the delivery the longer it will take and there are no guarantees as far safety.Ē Why? This sounds like we are talking about a banana republic not Argentina.

Iím sorry Roberto but I must be misunderstanding what you are telling me. This forum is a great service to the readers and posters and I appreciate the time you put into it so donít take this as my being argumentative.
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W Piccione
New member
Username: Mrspicci

Post Number: 19
Registered: 9-2007
Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 9:19 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Thank you for the clarification about paypal.
Best,
Mrs P
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WelcomeToMendoza.com
Junior Member
Username: Welcometomendoza

Post Number: 28
Registered: 7-2007


Posted on Monday, October 08, 2007 - 10:55 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

since on this topic. dineromail.com works with many argentine banks, but not with usa senders. We use it to collect funds from local clients. They can pay at a rapigo or pago facil. slighly expensive (almost 5%) but it works.
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Roberto
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 1335
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2007 - 1:48 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

> so donít take this as my being argumentative.

No need to worry about this...

You are correct. My advice was not good. It was practical, which may not be the same. Argentina is not a banana republic but a country that has endured enormous turmoil for longer than you can imagine (perhaps this is the definition of a BR, but I would like to think we aren't). As a result, many things do not work quite as they are supposed to. You can't extrapolate your US experience and try to find any kind of comparison because there aren't.

Banks in Argentina -as well as other administrative offices- are plagued by burocracy. A certified check will only slower the clearing process because of all the hands the validation has to go through. USPS may work decently in the US but once mail lands in Argentina you just don't know. Send it certified and spend the money... and you still do not know. Unfortunately, this is how it is. Based on first-hand experiences of having lost payments myself.

So in trying to secure shipments and payments you may be getting deep into red tape territory. And no, it doesn't make any sense and I invite anyone who disagrees to post facts to the contrary.

If instead, you go through a simpler route like using a personal check and simple postage you may gain in speed all the while increasing your risk slightly. As I mentioned, certified mails from the US still pose some risk. Visit your nearest USPS office and ask them for guarantees of delivery for that envelope or even tracking and they will give you none. USPS doesn't want to be responsible for whatever happens in another country. That certification is only good until your mail is shipped unto the airplane in the US. When cost is not an impediment, Fedex or UPS are the way to go.

As for the exchange houses the philosophy is pretty much the same. They do not go through all the burocracy as some may have permanent accounts in foreign banks and for them it is just exchanging a paper for cash, paper which will end up being deposited in a foreign account anyway. These are the 'knight templars' of the present time!

Here is what I think: you must consider the essence of your goals. Does the person in the receiving end not trust you and requires above and beyond guarantees? Then, deliver a cashier's check through certified mail (or private mail) and ask this person to be patient. Or do you have some kind of relationship with the receiver that will enable you -and him/her- to take a little more risk and see what happens?

Disclaimer: I do not recommend one way or the other. I am only stating my personal view and opinion. These are personal decisions and only you know how much risk you want to take or how bad you may feel if things do not go kosher. But the alernative is being stuck on the costly 30 days. As some other posters have stated, there aren't too many services that you can use as paypal will not work neither dineromail.

Here are 2 more ideas:

1. Can the person use an ATM card granted by you with an extraction limit? This is simple and cost effective. And if you do not have cash in the account there won't be any money taken.
2. How about western union?
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WelcomeToMendoza.com
Junior Member
Username: Welcometomendoza

Post Number: 29
Registered: 7-2007


Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2007 - 7:06 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

As an alternative to expensive UPS or FEDEX for documents, it's a no-brainer to use the EMS servicce of the postal system at almost half the cost and maybe 2 more business days but comes with tracking number, etc.

EMS is a program that post offices from over 100 countries particpate in.

To send from Argentina to abroad:
http://www.correoargentino.com.ar/sucursales/inter nac_pi-em.php

To send from USA to abroad:
http://ircalc.usps.gov/default.aspx?Mode=Intl_Sing le&CID=10009
(they call it Express Mail International)
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Simon Fawkes
Junior Member
Username: Expatba

Post Number: 44
Registered: 1-2007


Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2007 - 11:02 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

Back to Paypal - a friend of mine informs me that he thinks it's possible to load a Paypal account from a credit card, which could be an Argentinean one, and also to transfer funds back onto the credit card, thereby cutting out the need to access a bank account at all.

I haven't had a chance to verify this yet (not having an Argentinean credit card) but it maybe something worth investigating.

I hope this helps

Simon Fawkes
Author, The Complete Guide To Real Estate Investment in Argentina, ISBN 1430303980, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1430303980
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W Piccione
New member
Username: Mrspicci

Post Number: 20
Registered: 9-2007
Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2007 - 11:23 am:   Edit PostPrint Post

In my experience, I have rec'd payments from Argentina, Chile and Brazil via paypal. Perhaps, it was done via credit card. Its alwasys good to be informed.
Best!
Mrs. P
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A. D. Hudgens
New member
Username: Hijo_de_tejas

Post Number: 11
Registered: 8-2006
Posted on Tuesday, October 09, 2007 - 7:15 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

Roberto, thank you for this explanation with a little more detail. I tend to think of the USA as being plagued by burocracy and red tape and am now only learning about Argentina. Your advice was practical like you said and thatís the world we live in. I look forward to things getting better but until then Iím eager to learn more about Argentina and how to live with the red tape and enjoy the many wonderful things it has to offer. Thank everyone for the input and if you find a better way please let us know.
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Altagracia Herrera
New member
Username: Marinah

Post Number: 2
Registered: 6-2007
Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 4:33 pm:   Edit PostPrint Post

I have been sending money to Argentina for years and all methods have flaws, but these are two that are cheap and secure:
Cheapest of all, and if you send money regularly to somebody you trust, is to open an reg. check. acc. here in the US and give the ATM card to the person in Arg to withdraw the money when you deposit it. You won't be able to withdraw money from acc here unless you go to the window. And that's the only way you can make deposits, or through the US mail. Use a bank that is found in Arg. and doesn't charge atm fees- I've used CB for 5 years to pay apt. fees there. With the bank fees I paid at both ends before I "created that system" I could have owned another apt. there. The person can only withdraw what you put in.
Recently I discovered moneygram.com. If you go to a location in your area and pay with cash the are the most reasonable of all other systems even paypal. For 1400 they charged me 28.20 and because I requested a frecuent user card they gave me 1.23 disc. It's a bit more expensive if you use a credit card or a bank withdrawl. But still cheaper than the others.
But PLEASE, don't use the mail. I've had checks cashed fraudulently, checks torn and when the letter was opened and they saw an DNI number that made it difficult for them to cash, then the envelope, with torn check, was sealed and delivered, and there were some that never arrived. The cashed check I recovered but after paying notary fees there and here as well as more than an 8 months wait.
Good luck.

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